ACID POPS and Teenager Draco - Motivation?/Re: CHAPDISC:HBP19,Elf Tails

[dumbledore11214]

No: HPFGUIDX 157574

> Alla:
> > **but** nowhere in canon I see the mentioning of Snape loving 
Lily
> > for example and I see **plenty** of possible hints that Snape 
loved
> > Narcissa in Spinner End. <snip> 
Magpie:
> Right, because LOLLIPOS and ACID POPS are theories, which is what 
they're 
> called.  Meaning they are things that we think are going to be 
revealed to 
> have happened.  Draco going to Voldemort was presented as 
something that is 
> canon.  <SNIP>

Alla:

I do think we are running into semantics - if you are just saying 
that speculation should be labelled as such, I agree with you. I 
love speculating to my heart content, but I would not counter canon- 
based argument with speculation without agreeing first that this is 
much weaker argument, **but** IMO there is often no way to say where 
does explicit canon ends and speculation ends and I absolutely would 
not call extrapolation of the canon a weaker argument. IMO of course.

Are you saying that LOLLIPOPS and ACCIDPOPS do not analyse the 
storylines? I think they absolutely do - the ideas are inferred 
based on what we actually read. The difference is IMO that the 
predictions are made which may or may not be true, but they are 
based on the text analysis IMHO, so if all you are arguing is that 
Steve's argument is a theory, sure I will buy that, but I absolutely 
would not call it a weak theory

 
Magpie:
<SNIP>
 Why are they not talking about Draco's bad 
> mistake in sticking himself in Voldemort's face if that's an 
element of the 
> story--we need to know it and they would naturally talk about it!  
This 
> information isn't just mechanical details, it significantly 
changes the 
> stuff that needs to be resolved for Draco in HBP.

Alla:

Um, I agree with you actually. I think they should, but the argument 
can be easily made that they just did not need to talk about it ( 
Narcissa is concerned with saving Draco's life, not with talking 
about his idiocy, or maybe they just did not know. IMO.


 >  Alla:
> >
> > I think that the reader gets to put the events together any way 
the
> > reader pleases as long as the reader can present coherent 
argument,
> > IMHO.
> 
> Magpie:
<SNIP>
If this theory had a name and people were just waiting to see 
whether 
> they were proved right by having it explicitly stated in HBP I 
wouldn't feel 
> the need to argue against it.

Alla:

Right, so your objection against Steve's argument is that it is not 
labeled a theory? Is that correct? What I was saying though and 
still am is that reader gets to argue IMO any canon based 
speculation precisely because the canon is not finished yet and that 
does not mean at all that I am saying that everything will get 
overturned, quite the contrary. I am just confused why are you so 
sure that your interpretation is the right one, that is all.



 
> Magpie:
> What is going on with Snape is presented as a mystery within 
canon.  It's 
> still a mystery at the end of HBP.  When people argue over whether 
he's ESE, 
> DDM or OFH they are guessing what canon will eventually tell us.

Alla:

No, sorry, IMO they ( and me) are not doing just that, they are 
saying that such and such things **already** happened in the forest, 
on the tower, etc.


> 
> Alla:
> > Readers filled the gaps, that is IMHO perfectly valid way to 
argue (
> > in fact IMO there is **no** wrong way to argue here), but quite
> > frankly Draco going to Voldemort with the plan seems to me to be
> > much lesser assumption than Snape as Dumbledore man.
> 
> Magpie:
> Even if one means the author forgot to write the story she 
allegedly meant 
> (she accidentally wrote a different one that we should write over) 
while the 
> other is just one of a number of possible answers for something 
that is 
> presented as a question in canon?  Why is it crazy to think Snape 
might be 
> DDM when Dumbledore himself spends the whole book saying he's DDM?

Alla:

No, sorry again, but Dumbledore does not do any such thing, not even 
close, IMO. He says I trust Severus Snape. He never ever even says 
that he gives Snape the kind of trust that soldiers in the war give 
each other and that is I would expect to see from the fighters on 
the same side. He never says "I trust Snape with my life", we don't 
know what Dumbledore trusts Snape to do.

But all I am saying is that there is no certainty in canon about 
that, only ambiguity and the leap Steve makes seems to me much 
easier one, not that I am arguing against making any leaps.

 
> > Alla:
> >
> > Where? Where are the places that it should have been? And who 
gets
> > to decide that? For all we know it occurred behind the scenes 
and we
> > may never get the confirmation that it really occurred.
> 
> Magpie:
> It should be in some of the following places: Spinner's End, the 
bathroom 
> scene with Myrtle, the Tower scene and the scene between Draco and 
Snape. 
> These are the places where "what is the situation?" is presented.  
To put it 
> more broadly, the places it should have been are all somewhere 
between the 
> first page and the last page of the book.


Alla:

No, I am sorry again, but **you** think that it should have been 
written there, for all we know JKR decided to leave it on backstage, 
just as she has the backstory for the characters, she may not have 
considered it to be important enough to write on page, thinking that 
it would be obvious to deduce for the readers.

 
> Alla:
> > For example James and Lily thrice defied Voldemort, I will not be
> > surprised if we never actually learn how they did it.
> 
> Magpie:
> We're told James and Lily thrice defied Voldemort and you are 
accepting that 
> as canon.  To imitate this theory you need to say that it's canon 
that yes, 
> James and Lilly etc....prophesy etc...thrice defied, but really 
Godric's 
> Hollow lies on a special ley line in Great Britain and Voldemort 
wanted to 
> take over that spot and then he figured the Potters had to die--
far more 
> logical for a guy taking over the world.

Alla:

Leaving this unsnipped to say that probably due to the late hour I 
seriously don't follow your analogy.

JMHO,

Alla