[HPforGrownups] ACID POPS and Teenager Draco - Motivation?/Re: CHAPDISC:HBP19,Elf Tails

[Magpie]

No: HPFGUIDX 157571

> Alla:
>
> Sorry, but to me they **are** equal. Till the series end it does not
> really matter to me whether the theory is based on more facts in
> canon or less facts in canon, as long as theory is based on
> **something** which is presented in canon.

Magpie:
How are they equal when one is based on what we're told in canon and the 
other isn't?  If whatever we come up with is the same as the actual canon 
how can we come together to discuss the books?

Alla:
 For the record I am much
> more convinced by your version, but it really has nothing to do with
> the argument that your theory has more canonical back up, it is just
> I think you present stronger argument, that is all. Steve's argument
> also arrived from canon, although with a bit more extrapolation IMO.
> Draco learns about Vanishing cabinets, Draco is craving glory from
> being in Voldemort's service. Really, from these two **canonical**
> events to me there is not a long road to travel to Draco going to
> Voldemort with this information. Canon does not mention it true,

Magpie:
But--and I know I keep harping on this--but it's not just a case of a 
different set of details getting Draco to the point of trying to fix the 
Cabinet.  A story that begins with Draco going to Voldemort first needs to 
deal with that fact, and deal what got him to go to Voldemort whether it's 
revenge or just Draco trying to do the Inquisitor Squad on a higher level. 
Stories aren't just what things happen to make up the plot, they deal with 
the things brought up.

If Draco is chosen to punish Lucius, Draco is inheriting his father's 
mistakes, his family, trying to become a man like his father and father 
figure, Snape. (Very in keeping with the rest of his generation and I think 
the way the story plays out.)  It's so beautifully simple and symetrical 
with the set up in Spinner's End and the Unbreakable Vow--that's why I think 
it's actually important to keep it from having things stuck onto it.  You 
can't tack on the plotline of Macbeth for Hamlet and say they're just equal 
interpretations and the one just neatly nestles inside the other.

Alla:
> **but** nowhere in canon I see the mentioning of Snape loving Lily
> for example and I see **plenty** of possible hints that Snape loved
> Narcissa in Spinner End. Am I a little bit convinced that Snape
> loved Narcissa? Not at all. I mean I would love that to be true, but
> I am betting on Snape and Lily **precisely** for the silence of
> canon.

Magpie:
Right, because LOLLIPOS and ACID POPS are theories, which is what they're 
called.  Meaning they are things that we think are going to be revealed to 
have happened.  Draco going to Voldemort was presented as something that is 
canon.  It's like if I said that Lavender fed Ron a Love Potion is equally 
valid as the reading that Ron and Lavender just went out in HBP.  I can 
probably make it work, but I wouldn't call it analyzing and understanding 
the storyline in HBP.

Alla:>
> To go back to your canonical support of Voldemort being angry at
> Lucius. Um, yes he is angry, but for all I know, everything that had
> been said at Spinner End can turned to be a lie, no? It is called
> **Spinner End**, so who knows what lies had been spinned there, IMO.>
> What I am trying to say is that it is possible that this canon
> support can dissappear in book 7, no?

Magpie:
Sure, anything could happen in Book VII but there's little point in a story 
that's so random we're always getting information that un-writes the 
previous books.   If my canon support for Draco being given the task to 
punish Lucius disappears in Book VII (and that entire storyline in HBP 
potentially goes up in smoke with it) then that will be canon.  But I don't 
see how we can discuss the books if information we're given doesn't matter 
if we can come up with something ourselves and substitute it--that's 
different from suspecting there's more to what we already know and seeing 
how it will change things.  Plus I think we need to be reasonable about what 
kinds of things are likely to turn out to be complete lies (which isn't 
usually much) and what isn't.

In this case JKR has this whole plotline in Slytherin, one that's important 
but Harry can't see it well.  So she's got limited chances of giving us the 
basic information of what's going on.  I would think a good writer would use 
this time well, and she seems to do that.  She starts out in Spinner's End 
setting the whole plot in motion right out of the gate with Narcissa's 
dilemma.  What possible reason does JKR have for arranging that whole scene 
around the highly emotional idea that Draco's being chosen to punish Lucius 
and isn't expected to survive?  Why are they not talking about Draco's bad 
mistake in sticking himself in Voldemort's face if that's an element of the 
story--we need to know it and they would naturally talk about it!  This 
information isn't just mechanical details, it significantly changes the 
stuff that needs to be resolved for Draco in HBP. And is it really so 
important that it needs to be revisited and corrected in Book VII?   I will 
accept it if Draco reveals that he felt doubly stupid because he actually 
went to Voldemort with the Cabinet and that's what gave LV the idea about 
this particular revenge plot to begin with--but I wouldn't hold my breath 
for it to be re-written so we understand that Voldemort's motivations were 
actually more complicated, more strategic in ways that no longer matter and 
far more boring than the one we got in HBP.

 Alla:
>
> I think that the reader gets to put the events together any way the
> reader pleases as long as the reader can present coherent argument,
> IMHO.

Magpie:
Good lord--the idea gives me hives!;-)  That suggests if you can tell a 
convincing story it becomes part of the story JKR wrote--the reason people 
have claimed Knight2King, Draco's a werewolf, Ginny drugged Harry with a 
love potion and any number of things have been "proved" with evidence from 
canon. If this theory had a name and people were just waiting to see whether 
they were proved right by having it explicitly stated in HBP I wouldn't feel 
the need to argue against it.

Alla:
Otherwise, there would be no possible way that Snape the
> killer of Dumbledore could have turned out to be Dumbledore's most
> faithful servant for example, because as far as I can remember
> nowhere in canon it is actually **said** that Snape killed
> Dumbledore on his orders for example. There are scenes that had been
> **interpreted** as clues, extrapolated to the place I would not have
> ever **imagine** they could be taken and I respect these arguments.

Magpie:
What is going on with Snape is presented as a mystery within canon.  It's 
still a mystery at the end of HBP.  When people argue over whether he's ESE, 
DDM or OFH they are guessing what canon will eventually tell us.


Alla:
> Readers filled the gaps, that is IMHO perfectly valid way to argue (
> in fact IMO there is **no** wrong way to argue here), but quite
> frankly Draco going to Voldemort with the plan seems to me to be
> much lesser assumption than Snape as Dumbledore man.

Magpie:
Even if one means the author forgot to write the story she allegedly meant 
(she accidentally wrote a different one that we should write over) while the 
other is just one of a number of possible answers for something that is 
presented as a question in canon?  Why is it crazy to think Snape might be 
DDM when Dumbledore himself spends the whole book saying he's DDM?

> Magpie:
>> There is nothing that says that Draco took this idea to Voldemort
>> and then Voldemort turned it around on Draco--and there's plenty
> of
>> places where that should be if it occurred.
>
> Alla:
>
> Where? Where are the places that it should have been? And who gets
> to decide that? For all we know it occurred behind the scenes and we
> may never get the confirmation that it really occurred.

Magpie:
It should be in some of the following places: Spinner's End, the bathroom 
scene with Myrtle, the Tower scene and the scene between Draco and Snape. 
These are the places where "what is the situation?" is presented.  To put it 
more broadly, the places it should have been are all somewhere between the 
first page and the last page of the book.

Alla:
> For example James and Lily thrice defied Voldemort, I will not be
> surprised if we never actually learn how they did it.

Magpie:
We're told James and Lily thrice defied Voldemort and you are accepting that 
as canon.  To imitate this theory you need to say that it's canon that yes, 
James and Lilly etc....prophesy etc...thrice defied, but really Godric's 
Hollow lies on a special ley line in Great Britain and Voldemort wanted to 
take over that spot and then he figured the Potters had to die--far more 
logical for a guy taking over the world.

-m