What Came First: Task or Cabinet? - The Plan v1 & v2

[horridporrid03]

No: HPFGUIDX 157694

> >>Betsy Hp:
> > But this theory isn't a backstory.  It goes right to 
> > the heart of the Draco mystery.  What is he doing and 
> > why? Canon tells us one thing: he's trying to kill 
> > Dumbledore on Voldemort's orders, the cabinets is the 
> > method he came up with.  Steven's speculation is 
> > completely different and, if true, requires a completely 
> > different summing up moment.  ...

> >>bboyminn:
> No, my speculation isn't completely different, my 
> speculation is exactly that 'he's trying to kill Dumbledore 
> on Voldemort's orders, the cabinets is the method he came 
> up with'. Just not in that order.

Betsy Hp:
Steve, all I'm talking about is the order.  Canon says Voldemort 
sought out Draco.  You're speculating that Draco sought out 
Voldemort.  Because I'm focused on the order, I definitely see that 
these two versions are completely different.

> >> Betsy Hp:
> > It needs the action in book 7 to come to a screeching 
> > halt while Draco explains that *he* actually sought out 
> > *Voldemort*. ...

> >>bboyminn:
> Once again...no. From the point in both suggested scenarios,
> where Voldemort assigns Draco that task of killing Dumbledore, 
> the story and the next book play out the same either way. It
> is purely your speculation that the current book or the next
> will or will need to play out differently.

Betsy Hp:
What I'm saying is that for your speculation to be proven correct 
there will need to be a moment in canon that states it as such.  
That did not happen in HBP.  So a halt will need to be called to the 
action of book 7 so that the readers can learn that Draco sought out 
Voldemort, not the other way around as HBP would have had you 
believe.

> >>Betsy Hp:
> > ... It's only this "cabinet came first" theory that has 
> > caused various readers to decide that Narcissa is lying, 
> > mistaken, guessing, etc.  Narcissa herself seems pretty 
> > sure of what is going on.
> > ... 

> >>bboyminn:
> Again...no. Your argument is completely flawed, because no 
> one is doubting that Voldemort gave Draco the task because 
> he was angry at Lucius.
> <snip>

Betsy Hp:
I'm not talking about Voldemort's *reasons* for choosing Draco.  I'm 
talking about who did the choosing.  Did Draco choose to seek out 
Voldemort?  Not a single character raises that view.  Did Voldemort 
choose Draco?  Narcissa states this (and she doesn't qualify it at 
all) several times. No one questions her.  All the characters in 
that room seem quite comfortable with Narcissa stating as fact that 
Voldemort chose Draco.

> >>bboymin:
> Some how we have to get Voldemort and Draco into a room 
> together, I speculate a pretty convincing way for them to 
> come together. A way for them to come together that has 
> plenty of clues in canon and a thin but viable timeline.

Betsy Hp:
And I say that there is nothing in canon to back up your speculation 
and a massive hole in your timeline.  Please, give me some canon to 
work with; explain the gap in the timeline.

> >>bboymin:
> In your way, as I said before, it is nothing but 'Bring me
> Draco. Draco, your dad is an ass, now kill Dumbledore or
> die trying'.

Betsy Hp:
And this is the way canon supports.  In Spinner's End, on the train 
to Hogwarts, in the boys bathroom, and on the Tower.

> >>bboymin:
> That is the most ridiculous, worthless, and pointless time wasting 
> plan that has occurred so far. 
> <snip>

Betsy Hp:
The logic of the plan is a different issue though.  Personally, I 
see a rather elegantly simple and cruel way of making the Malfoy 
family twist in the wind with little to no effort on Voldemort's 
part.  But I can certainly see where others might disagree.  (I saw 
a similar cruelty in the GoF plan -- though the simple elegance was 
missing. And I know others disagree with me on that.  Don't make the 
GoF plan untrue. <g>)

> >>bboymin:
> If that is all there is to the plan, then there is nothing.
> However, if Voldemort becomes aware of a means of entering
> Hogwarts by stealth, then we have the perfect seed upon 
> which all other things can be built.

Betsy Hp:
What other things?  Because the invasion of Hogwarts was a total 
bust.  The Death Eaters didn't have a leader, they didn't seem to 
have a goal.  This was Voldemort's big plan?  Big plan to do what?

> >>bboymin:
> You don't have to believe that, but you do have to argue fair.

Betsy Hp:
I am, Steve.  You're the one who keeps bringing it back to *why* 
Voldemort was angry, when really the bone of contention is who 
approached whom.

> >>bboymin:
> In this post, you are assigning aspects to my theory that
> simply don't exist, and are making assumptions and assertions
> that simply don't exits.

Betsy Hp:
I'm not.  But I think you see it that way because you're trying to 
argue the "why" and all I'm interested in is seeing any kind of 
support for your "when".  So I do tend to ignore the "why" stuff. 

> >>bboymin:
> In your other post, you hopelessly warped the timeline to suit    
> your needs by assigning actions to a few months when they actually 
> took a few weeks. 

Betsy Hp:
Blame Mike for that.  Though actually, blame canon.  Because Mike 
followed the canon timeline and I followed along.  According to 
Mike's timeline the best (and most logical) time for Draco to hear 
Montague's cabinet story and to really start thinking about it is in 
the last few weeks of the school year (late June, I think?).  
Personally, I disagree and think the most logical time is mid-summer 
(mid-July).  Canon doesn't tell us for sure.  So when exactly Draco 
heard Montague's tale is debatable.  Could have been during the end 
of his fifth year, could have been over the summer.  

When Draco actually had reason to *think* about what that story 
meant is a bit more reduced, IMO.  Draco isn't angry until after the 
OWLs.  Personally, I think at that point he was *too* angry to be 
putting a clever idea together like the cabinet plot.  And I think 
he was too focused on getting Harry.  (When we know for certain that 
Draco has come up with the cabinet plot, we also can see that he's 
not focused on Harry any longer.)

But we do know, for absolute certain, that Draco was given his task 
at the beginning of the summer (first week of July?), and he doesn't 
do a thing about the cabinets until mid-August.  That's a fairly big 
gap.  And the gap only widens if we're to believe Draco approached 
Voldemort with his Cabinet plan.

> >>bboymin:
> I still say the position you are arguing in just as filled
> with speculation and interpretation as mine is.

Betsy Hp:
Well you can *say* that.  But it'd be nice to see some canon. <g>  
(I've provided quite a bit, I think.)

> >>bboyminn:
> The difference is that with my version, we actually have a reason 
> for Voldie and Draco to come together, and we actually have a      
> coherent plan with some strategic value.

Betsy Hp:
The canon version has a good reason for Voldemort to seek out Draco, 
and his plan is incredibly coherent with a high amusement value.  
(Which is all the plan is supposed to have as per canon.)

The only difference I see is that for some reason you want Draco to 
seek out Voldemort.  (Why is that important to you, out of 
curiosity?)

> >>bboymin:
> I have no problem with you not agreeing with me, but please,
> when you argue, don't let your enthusiasm warp your facts.

Betsy Hp:
Just point out those facts I've warped and I'll apologize. <g>

Betsy Hp