Cohesion

[Steve]

No: HPFGUIDX 162255

---  "rduran1216" <rduran1216 at ...> wrote:
>
> > rduran1216 <rduran1216@> wrote:
> > > ... The implied clues dictate that Dumbledore planned
> > > what happened, but at the same time, it doesn't seem
> > > like anyone besides Snape was in on it as well. ...
> > >
> > > So my question is, let's assume the opposite, that
> > > Snape really is an instrument of Voldemort's, how
> > > can the story possibly be brought together, ...
> >
> > bboyminn:
> > <snip> As to whether Dumbledore 'planned what 
> > happened', my answer is yes and no. Dumbledore 
> > certainly had many plans, general and specific, for 
> > what was happening and for what might happen. These
> > plans were constantly being refined base on more 
> > information becoming available and circumstances 
> > changing.
> >
> > I believe his general plan for Snape was for Snape
> > to always act for the greater good, even if in the
> > moment, the greater good seemed to be outweighed by
> > an immediate need. <snip>
> 
> 
> rduran1216:
> It seems we have differing views on the extent of 
> Dumbledore's knowledge of what had been going on.  

bboyminn:

Don't get me wrong, absolutely and with certain certainty
Dumbledore knows FAR more than he has told. In OotP when
Dumbledore told Harry he was going to tell him 'everything'
I laughed to myself and though 'you aren't even going to
tell him one tenth of what you know', and I stil believe 
that.

What I am objecting to is the general idea that Dumbledore
planned his own death. Planned it as in he sat Snape down
and said, 'OK, look, just as Draco is about to kill me, I
want you to jump in front of him and kill me yourself; 
it's the perfect plan, it's bound to work'. Nothing so
bold and cold as that, so says I.

I think what Dumbledore told Snape was that if it came 
down to winning the battle to save Dumbledore's life OR
winning the war, Snape should chose winning the war. AND
I think that is exactly the choice Snape made. In that 
moment, he couldn't save himself, he couldn't save Harry,
he couldn't save Dumbledore because to try to do so would
have virtually guaranteed the loss of everyone including 
Dumbledore. So, as I see it, Snape chose the path of least
resistance, the path of least destruction, and the path
of the greatest long term good in the battle against 
Voldemort. 

The choices were attempt to engage in a prolonged battle
with likely high casualties to save Dumbledore and Harry
and most likely lose either literally or strategically, 
or kill Dumbledore and get Draco and the DE out of the 
castle as quickly as possible.

> rduran1216:
> ... My contention is that if Snape turns out to be evil,
> how can the way Dumbledore acted in HBP be explained?
> 

bboyminn:

Well...he can't! You are absolutely right. In my view, it
is simply a matter of how Snape will help Harry, not /if/.
Snape is mean, rotten, nasty, sarcastic, ill-tempered,...
what am I leaving out?? He is as bad as they come, but
he is good; I guess you could say he is bad-good, rather
than nice-good. Remus Lupin is nice-good, almost too nice
for his own good. Back to Snape, as not-nice as Snape is,
he seems to be there to do the right thing, in his own 
nasty way, when the chips are down. When it really counts,
count on Snape.

In the scene at the top of the tower, Snape chose the path
of the quickest exit and least damage. The damage was 
terrible, but it could have been far worse. 

I say that if Snape turns out to be evil, meaning his true
alligiance is to Voldemort, then a lot of Dumbledore's
actions and statements don't make sense, which is what I
hear you saying.

So, on this line of thought, I think we are in agreement.


> rduran1216:
> ,,,
> 
> Either way, I'm just playing devil's advocate a bit, 
> because in my mind its predetermined that something is
> yet to be explained that will bring Severus' character
> some redemption.
> 
> rduran1216
>

bboyminn:

Well, I've already agreed, so let's just call this summing
up. Absolutely 'predetermined', there is something about
Snape that we don't know, and once we do know it, Snape's
actions will be explained. 

I don't think they will be quite justified or forgiven, 
but they will be explained and understood. Snape acted in
his role as a spy, and as I've said before, at some point 
or other, a spy will have to betray everyone. 
Circumstances in that moment demanded that Snape fulfill
his role as a spy and 'betray' Dumbledore. 

But the time will come, of this I am absolutely sure, 
when the tables are turned and Snape will commit the 
ultimate act of betrayal against Voldemort. Though, sadly
I am wondering if it will cost him his life? Perhaps just
as well, since while I think his actions will be 
explained, I don't think he will get off Scot-free for 
killing Dumbledore, so perhaps better he die a noble death.

I believe that heart of the next book will be related to 
how Snape will get Harry to trust him again, or for that
matter how Snape can even managed to contact Harry. But
I believe a resolution between these two characters is
critical to bringing Voldemort down.

Though it runs off on a tangent, I think there will be a
similar struggle for Draco to convince Harry that he no
longer wants to support Voldemort.

I think Peter will come around when he suspects Voldemort
might not win, and he will want to repay his life debt 
and engraciate himself to Harry and the Ministy in hopes
that he won't have to spend his entire life in prison, or
worse suffer the Dementor's Kiss.

Just a few more thoughts.

Steve/bboyminn