Cohesion

[justcarol67]

No: HPFGUIDX 162276

bboyminn wrote:
<snip>
> 
> I think what Dumbledore told Snape was that if it came 
> down to winning the battle to save Dumbledore's life OR
> winning the war, Snape should chose winning the war. AND
> I think that is exactly the choice Snape made. In that 
> moment, he couldn't save himself, he couldn't save Harry,
> he couldn't save Dumbledore because to try to do so would
> have virtually guaranteed the loss of everyone including 
> Dumbledore. So, as I see it, Snape chose the path of least
> resistance, the path of least destruction, and the path
> of the greatest long term good in the battle against 
> Voldemort. 

> The choices were attempt to engage in a prolonged battle
> with likely high casualties to save Dumbledore and Harry
> and most likely lose either literally or strategically, 
> or kill Dumbledore and get Draco and the DE out of the 
> castle as quickly as possible.
> 
Carol responds:
I agree that he couldn't save the wandless, weakened Dumbledore, who
would be killed by the DEs if not by the poison if neither Draco nor
Snape killed him, and that Dumbledore wanted Snape to save himself
rather than be killed by the UV or the DEs, as he surely would have
been fighting against four DEs, one of them a ravening werewolf who
didn't need to transform to rip people apart with his teeth. Skilled
as Snape is, he can't duel and use Legilimency on four opponents at
once. He had sworn to protect Draco, and that was a motivation to,
with or without the UV. He had to get Draco off the tower before the
DEs decided to kill him for failing to kill Dumbledore, as they surely
would have done if Snape died. And then there was Harry. Snape must
have noticed the two brooms as Draco did, and unlike Draco, he would
have drawn the conclusion that Harry must be there in his Invisibility
Cloak. The only way to keep Harry from rushing out to fight the DEs
(and Greyback from having Dumbledore for "afters") when Dumbledore was
killed was to send him over the battlements. So by killing Dumbledore,
who would have died anyway, Snape saved himself and the two boys.
(Granted, Harry did follow him and petrified one DE from the back, but
he had to be rescued from Greyback and Snape himself rescued him from
a DE who would have Cruciod'd him, but that's better than dying on the
tower fighting against four DEs and wildcard!Draco, who might have
chosen to fight with rather than against the DEs in such circumstances.) 

So Snape escaping to join the DEs, which must always have been part of
the plan (Dumbledore probably anticipated that the DADA curse would
take that form, especially after he learned of the UV) was only one
advantage of having Snape kill Dumbledore if Dumbledore had to die.
And, of course, neither of them wanted Draco to do it. Snape took a
lot upon himself--personal guilt and remorse, the hatred of the
wizarding world, and the exchange of his "comfortable job" for
fugitive status and whatever duties Voldemort will assign him--all to
save the son of his friend and the Chosen One whom he hates and to do
what he can to bring down Voldemort from the inside. And yet the
alternative would have been worse: dead Dumbledore, dead Snape, dead
Draco, dead Harry, the DEs including Fenrir Greyback free to run loose
in the school with only the Order members and a few kids to oppose
them, Voldemort victorious.

rduran1216:
> > ... My contention is that if Snape turns out to be evil, how can
the way Dumbledore acted in HBP be explained?
> > 
> 
> bboyminn:
> 
> Well...he can't! You are absolutely right. In my view, it
> is simply a matter of how Snape will help Harry, not /if/.
> Snape is mean, rotten, nasty, sarcastic, ill-tempered,...
> what am I leaving out?? He is as bad as they come, but
> he is good; I guess you could say he is bad-good, rather
> than nice-good. <snip>
> 
> In the scene at the top of the tower, Snape chose the path
> of the quickest exit and least damage. The damage was 
> terrible, but it could have been far worse. 
> 
> I say that if Snape turns out to be evil, meaning his true
> alligiance is to Voldemort, then a lot of Dumbledore's
> actions and statements don't make sense, which is what I
> hear you saying.
> 
> So, on this line of thought, I think we are in agreement.
<snip>

Carol:
I would hardly call Snape "as bad as they come." I reserve that label
for Voldemort and for such characters as Umbridge, Bellatrix, and
Barty Crouch Jr. Snape is sarcastic, strict, occasionally unfair, and
somewhat scary, but he has also consistently watched over Harry and
either saved or attempted to save his life and the lives of his
friends at least three times. His Occlumency lessons explained what
Occlumency is, why it was necessary (except for the information about
the Prophecy, which Dumbledore wanted him to conceal), and, to the
extent that it's possible to explain such a thing, how it's done.
(Harry learns by doing, not by listening, in any case, and would have
learned at least rudimentary Occlumency had he not been so full of
anger and determination to have that dream.) I agree that Snape isn't
nice, but not that he's bad. His actions throughout the book indicate
that he's on the side of good, despite his training and his natural
inclinations, making him, for me, by far the most interesting
character in the books. And I agree that Dumbledore's actions, and
Snape's own, make sense only if he's Dumbledore's man, not
Voldemort's. There is some chance that he's out for himself, though
that's not how I see it. But the six books we've read so far make no
sense at all if Snape is what Draco thinks he is, a double agent
secretly loyal to Voldemort. I think he's a double agent not so
secretly loyal to Dumbledore. It's only when he's in front of
Slytherins or DEs or Harry that he must conceal his loyalties.

I think that both Snape and Dumbledore knew that DD would not survive
the year, in part because of the ring Horcrux and in part because no
one survived once Voldemort decided to kill them, and that Snape would
be forced under some circumstances to join the DEs because of the UV
and the DADA curse. I think the agreement was that Snape would do
whatever he had to do to save Draco and Harry and gain Voldemort's
trust, even if that meant carrying out the Unbreakable Vow. IMO, DD
saw Snape's life as more important than his own, just as he saw
Harry's as more important than his own (and said so in the cave chapter).

Carol, hoping that much of the plot of Book 7 centers around Snape,
who is much more interesting to her than Horcruxes of any variety