Why are Dobby and Grawp so annoying?/ Dumbledore's plans in HBP LONG

[dumbledore11214]

No: HPFGUIDX 162286

> Pippin:
> ::blinks::
> In the very post in which you decide that you don't like Dobby
> because he's injured Harry, you also proclaim that you can't see
> any analogy with Snape?

Alla:

Huh? Oh, I suppose if we will take the assumption of Snape's good 
intentions as canon, then I can see your analogy somehow. Dobby's 
good intentions **are** canon though, Snape's are not IMO.



> > Alla:
> > 
> > Well, no I would rather read about better written character, I 
could 
> > care less whether character is human or not.
> > In Louis Bujold saga about Miles Vorkosigan for example  there 
are 
> > plenty fascinating non-human character.
> > So, as of today, I guess I just think that Grawp is not written 
well, 
> > contrary to Dobby.
> 
> Pippin:
> So  you're assuming that JKR's aim is to make you like the 
character,
> and therefore if you don't like him, he must be poorly written? But
> what if she doesn't want to make you like the character very much?
<SNIP>

Alla:

It is backwards, Pippin. I am thinking that character is not well 
written, that is why I do not like him much.

And I was talking about Grawp, not Dobby as bad written. I mean, 
again going back to Kreacher I am pretty sure that JKR does not want 
me to like him much and he is well written too.

Pippin:
> You said in a previous post that you thought canon wants us to be
> sympathetic to Dobby. Certainly Dobby is more sympathetic than
> Kreacher. But compare the way Dobby is handled and described to
> Lupin or Firenze. 
<snips canon examples of Lupin and Firense coolness> 

Alla:

Um, okay. So, Lupin and Firense are described cooler than Dobby. I 
do not remember Dobby on his own without making comparisons to other 
characters being described as unsympathetic.

Pippin:
> As far as Harry knows, Firenze and Lupin haven't injured him in any
> significant way. Dobby has. 

Alla:

Well, yeah, they did not injur Harry. As far as I remember, it 
should read they did not injure Harry, period. Do you know something 
none of us knows, Pippin? :)

Pippin:
> Finally, it's hard to identify with Dobby because, like Snape, 
we're
> not sure what to make of his attitude. We don't
> debate whether the centaurs or werewolves have human feelings,
> but we're not so sure about House Elves, and we're not so
> sure about Snape.

Alla:

Sorry, but as I said above - I am hundred percent sure about Dobby's 
attitude in that sense analogy with Snape does not work for me.

Dobby was doing harmful things while trying to help Harry. That is 
IMO canon. Snape on the other hand is doing them for some reasons.

Oh, and I guess if we were to compare them after all Dobby wins, 
because as Sherry said in GoF and another books Dobby does help 
without hurting Harry, something which Snape is else to demonstrate 
( that is if he was doing things to help in the first place)

And here I want to bring up Goblins again - do you have any 
explanation why I like them so much while they are barely in the 
books?

They certainly not described with any kind of love to Harry, no?

We are not sure about how human their feelings are, etc.

Again, with werewolves as I said earlier I undoubtedly sympathetic 
to them because of Remus first and foremost. Centaurs - while I do 
not see their general coolness in the books ( Firense seems an 
exception, no?), I think that subconsciously I indentify with them 
as the cousins of centaurs from greek mythology, which I love and 
that is quite likely to be underlying reason of me liking them. 
Really, purely subjective, I am thinking. Centaurs in the books just 
want to be left alone by humans, no?

Oh, and personally I do not debate at all that house elves have 
emotions remarkably close to humans - I don't see what makes you 
doubt it.
 
> 
> > Carol:
> > <SNIP>
> >  And his idea of helping Harry is
> > to get him in trouble with the Dursleys and the MoM (the pudding
> > incident), to prevent him from taking the Hogwarts Express and
> > potentially injure both him and Ron in the process (solidifying 
the
> > barrier they're supposed to walk through), and setting a rogue 
Bludger
> > on him ("Not kill you, sir! Never kill you!" Could have fooled 
me, 
> > Dobby.)
> 
> Pippin:
> Hah! Another Snape analogy: "But he never wanted you *dead*."

Alla:

And if Harry would have died while Dobby was trying to help him? 
Would anybody cared what he wanted to do?

That is incredibly wierd for me - because I always insist that 
intent matters and will keep insisting on that in analysing 
characters, but as I said I suppose with Dobby  the annoyance from 
his actions is just too great, but I am positive that he is a good 
guy, I just don't like him much, contrary to Snape, whom I am not 
sure about and hate.

> > Alla:
> I mean if Dobby at the end would have 
> > indeed helped Harry in some significant way, it would make me 
feel 
> > less annoyed with him, but while he wanted to help, he did not 
really 
> > do anything helpful, no?
> 
> Pippin:
> I see you've forgotten that he saved Harry from whatever curse
> Lucius meant to put on him at the end of CoS.


Alla:

I forgot  that Lucius start the curse in the book, I thought that 
was in the movie only. I thought that in the book Lucius advances at 
Harry, 
but does not curse him yet? Did he start the curse in the book? He 
probably would have cursed him in any event, eventually, I 
guess.  Dobby meant well, again and finally executed it not bad 
either. So that adds more to Dobby's good deeds, unquestionable good 
deeds - if he saves Harry again at the end of book 7, maybe I will 
come to like him.

> bboyminn:
> 
> I was trying to explain the underlying psychology that 
> would produce the type of reaction you described, and
> I still think that is a subliminal part of it, but...
> 
> Could it be you find Dobby and Grawp annoying because
> THEY ARE! 
><SNIP>


Alla:

Well, of course it is sometimes not possible to explain one's 
emotional reaction to the characters and it could be that one reacts 
to the characters in the certain way just because it does.

For the most part though for me there is always a reason why I react 
to the characters in certain way - it may be not the most logical 
reson, but the reason nonetherless.

I was trying to see for the purpose of this thread whether somebody 
else's emotional reaction matches mine and whether I can hit upon 
something and it seems that with Dobby I did.

It is also funny for me that I almost blocked for myself the reason 
why I want to slap Dobby, even though I remembered his actions in 
CoS well enough. As I said above - to me intent always matters, so 
maybe I sort of hypnotised myself  :) that despite Dobby doing what 
he did in CoS, what counts the most is what he wanted to do and I 
should not be annoyed with him.

Well, I suppose my intellect and my emotions are at odds here, while 
my mind tells me I should not be annoyed with him, since he meant 
well, my emotions are telling me that because of his life saving 
attempts Harry got hurt badly, and could have been hurt worse.

I mean, as I also said above, he did better in next books, so maybe 
annoyance factor will go away someday.

In any event, what I am trying to say - it had been useful exercise 
for me.

> Pippin:
> But that *is* the fight against Voldemort. 

Alla:

You mean dying for Draco Malfoy being able to have a revelation? 
Sorry, not my interpretation at all.

Pippin:
The freedom to decide
> who you are and what you want to be is what Voldemort wants to take
> away from people. If the wizarding world decides it's not worth
> fighting for, then Voldemort wins. 


Alla:

And did anybody ask Ron and Katie whether they wish to give up their 
lives in order for Malfoy to understand that signing up for killing 
Headmaster is a stupid thing to do?

I mean, if it is Dumbledore's choice to do that for Malfoy - sure, 
who knows maybe Ron would have also decided that it is worth dying 
for ( miracle of miracles). Nobody ask them to risk their lifes for 
little assasin. Nobody. Dumbledore made that decision for them in my 
opinion.


Pippin:
Dumbledore told all those in the Hall in GoF that he planned to 
unite all
those who were willing to oppose Voldemort -- and his eyes were on 
the
Slytherin table as he said it. He offered them a bond of friendship 
and
trust. His strategy was no secret, and those who disagreed with it 
were
welcome to pull their children out of Hogwarts. Some did.


Alla:

His strategy to risk the innocent lives in order to make sure the 
wannabe murderer turns out to the right side was no secret?

Then he fooled me for sure. I had an impression that Dumbledore 
meant something different there. 

This is the classic case of how Dumbledore's good intentions fall 
flat sometimes for me when it comes down to practical executions of 
them.

Nice words at the end of GoF, but if that is what their practical 
implication is.... shakes her head at DD.


> > Pippin:
> > But that *is* the fight against Voldemort. The freedom to decide
> > who you are and what you want to be is what Voldemort wants to 
take
> > away from people. If the wizarding world decides it's not worth
> > fighting for, then Voldemort wins. 
> 
> a_svirn:
> And what does fighting Voldemort have to do with wanting to save 
> Draco's immortal soul? 


Alla:

Thank you a_svirn :), well said. I mean turning Voldemort's minions 
and wanna be minions to the right side can sure part of the fight, 
but this is the extension of the fight, which IMO should be purely 
voluntary, meaning that no shadow can be cast on some courageous 
soul, who is all for resitance fight, but who could care less 
whether Voldemort's minions can be saved.

That is sort of an extracirricular activity of the war ( if those 
words can be applied to the war) - if Dumbledore wants to take it 
upon himself by all means, I do not think that he has a right to ask 
the same of anybody else.


> a_svirn:
> I fail to see what it has to do with anything. If he meant to risk 
> his students' lives to foster the bond of friendship with 
Slytherins 
> he should have had the decency to say so. Of course, the only 
> students left in Hogwarts in that case would have been 
mugglebornes, 
> and that only because their parents don't have the foggiest about 
> the war.
>

Alla:

I can just see Ron agreeing to put his life in geopardy to save 
Draco Malfoy. Although I would not exclude him or any other Trio 
doing that in book 7, but I am betting anything that if that 
happens, it would be their own choice, made of the goodness of their 
hearts, **not** the choice that Dumbledore made for them.

IMHO of course,

Alla