The DDM or ESE Snape debate Continues!!(was:Re: A couple of little theories!)

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No: HPFGUIDX 162315

> Jenni from Alabama:
> He's so mean to Harry all through the books.
> 
> Betsy Hp:
> And yet he just can't quite seem to keep himself from constantly 
> saving Harry's life. *sighs a bit over how gosh darn heroic 
> Snape is:

Jenni from Alabama responds: 
I truly feel that LV has Snape 'save' Harry so it will look like he 
is really on the Order's side. The whole while he is doing LV's 
bidding. Harry is not the one that shows instant animosity towards 
Snape. Snape is cruel to Harry right off the bat.
 
> Jenni from Alabama:
> He seems to condone cruelty to others - especially if it's done by 
> Draco and done to one of the Trio.
> 
> Betsy Hp:
> Kind of like how the Trio condone cruelty to "others" especially 
> if it's done to Draco (or any Slytherin, really)?

Jenni from Alabama responds:
Really? Show me where any of the Trio are the first to start up 
things with any of the Slytherins! They always are defending 
themselves (or others). They even try to avoid confrontations with 
Draco and his bullies. Draco (or Crabbe and Goyle)comes to seek them 
out, not vice versa. Show me one time where any of the Trio seeks 
out a member of Draco's crew to start things up. 

And they don't condone cruelty, especially Hermione. Examples: Draco 
tried to jinx Harry when Harry's back was turned, she still 
said that it was wrong for Barty Crouch Jr. (as Moody) to turn him 
into the ferret and bounce him. (Sorry, I have to giggle here, 
mental image!) She says that he really shouldn't have done that, 
Malfoy could really have been hurt. Ron and Harry very reluctantly 
agree, though they all still think it is funny. I don't condone it 
either, it was wrong of Crouch, but it is funny!

Hermione also says the twins were wrong for putting Montague in that 
Vanishing Cabinet. Though Montague was quite mean to the twins and 
others.

When Harry walks in on Draco in tears in the bathroom with Moaning 
Myrtle. Harry is shocked and (IMO) moved. If Draco hadn't attacked 
him, Harry may even have listened and offered help. But Draco did 
attack him. Draco tries to jinx Harry twice before Harry uses the 
Sectumsempra Curse. Harry had no clue what the curse did and 
immediately tried to undo it after it is cast and hits Draco. He 
feels a huge amount of remorse. 

Draco however tried to use the Cruciatus Curse on Harry knowing full 
well what that curse does and so therefore would have had full 
responsibility for his actions. Draco also attacked Harry on the 
train, stunned him and roughed him up (kicked him, broke his nose). 
Draco feels no remorse for this. Even laughs about it! 

Harry nor any of the Trio would have done such a thing. Yeah, they 
may have fought with Draco or his crew, but they would never lash 
out unless attacked first. 

>Jenni from Alabama:
> Of course the HUGE thing is killing Dumbledore!! And it's not 
> just that Snape actually killed Dumbledore, it's the look 
> on his face that JKR describes just before he did it - of 
> revulsion  and hatred.
> 
> Betsy Hp:
> You mean, the exact hatred and revulsion Harry was feeling (for 
> himself) as he force-fed Dumbledore poison in the scene just 
before 
> this one?  That look of hatred and revulsion? ::grins madly, 
because 
> I really, really love that parallel::

Jenni from Alabama responds:
I don't see it that way. I think Snape really is a bad guy.
> 
Jenni from Alabama:
> It's the comments he makes to Harry about Lily being a 'Mudblood'.
 
> Betsy Hp:
> I'm calling for a canon check on this one: when does Snape *ever* 
> comment to Harry about Lily being a mudblood?  For that matter, 
> does Snape ever speak of Lily to Harry?
>
Jenni from Alabama responds: OK, you asked for Canon, here it is. 
American Edition pg.648 Order of the Pheonix:

"I don't need help from filthy little Mudbloods like her!" 

Lily blinked. "Fine," she said coolly. "I won't bother in the 
future..."

My mistake was that it wasn't said TO Harry, it was said to James. 
Harry just heard it in the pensieve.

But Snape did refer to/call Lily a Mudblood. She was defending him 
and he still trashed her! Talk about low. 

>Jenni from Alabama:
> <snip> However, there IS a little voice inside my head that is 
saying that Snape will redeem himself in the last book somehow. I 
don't know why I feel that way. I can't stand Snape. But yet it is 
there, whispering.
> 
> Betsy Hp:
> It's the sexy beast thing.  Snape is too darn cool to completely 
> write off.  Doubts of his pure evilness will linger.  Goodness, 
> even Harry likes to curl up in bed with him!  (Erm, okay, I'll 
> admit I'm stretching things on that last one...  But Harry 
> definitely felt a kinship with young!Snape.  See?  Even Harry 
> can't completely write off Snape!

Jenni from Alabama responds:
Not until he kills Dumbledore. That is when I write him off too. 
Though the voice whispers, I don't see how in the heck Snape can 
fully redeem himself in the last book. He can atone for SOME of it, 
but not all. Never could make up for killing Dumbledore!

There's that dang voice again! I wish it would just shut up!