[HPforGrownups] The DDM or ESE Snape debate Continues!!(was:Re: A couple of little theories!)

[Magpie]

No: HPFGUIDX 162319


>> Betsy Hp:
>> Kind of like how the Trio condone cruelty to "others" especially
>> if it's done to Draco (or any Slytherin, really)?
>
> Jenni from Alabama responds:
> Really? Show me where any of the Trio are the first to start up
> things with any of the Slytherins! They always are defending
> themselves (or others).

Magpie:
Starting things up with the Slytherins and condoning cruelty against others 
are two different things.  And while I agree with some of the basic ideas 
you present here, I think you go too far to the other extreme for the 
Gryffindors, who really are not all that bothered by cruelty to others.

Hermione does point out that Moody's ferret bounce was too extreme.

Jenni:
 Hermione also says the twins were wrong for putting Montague in that
> Vanishing Cabinet. Though Montague was quite mean to the twins and
> others.

Magpie:
No, she doesn't say the Twins were wrong for putting him there, nor do we 
see Montague being quite mean to the twins and others.  Montague was in the 
IS and tried to take points from the Twins, which is why they pushed him 
into the Cabinet.  He wasn't hurting them. Hermione's line comes weeks later 
when she sees Montague's parents coming to the school to see their son, who 
is still in the infirmary. She "in a worried voice" wonders if they 
shouldn't tell someone what happened to him to help cure him.  Both boys 
shoot her down very easily.  So that particular exchange doesn't show much 
on their part, imo.  They see someone suffering, think they might have a way 
of helping them, and decide against it without much trouble because the 
continued suffering is better for them. There's never any discussion of the 
Twins being wrong to have pushed him in the first place that I recall.

Jenni:>
> When Harry walks in on Draco in tears in the bathroom with Moaning
> Myrtle. Harry is shocked and (IMO) moved. If Draco hadn't attacked
> him, Harry may even have listened and offered help. But Draco did
> attack him. Draco tries to jinx Harry twice before Harry uses the
> Sectumsempra Curse. Harry had no clue what the curse did and
> immediately tried to undo it after it is cast and hits Draco. He
> feels a huge amount of remorse.

Magpie:
This again is going a little too far, imo.  First, there is no indication 
that Harry actually is moved by Malfoy's crying, and we certainly can't 
assume that he would have done any particular thing if Malfoy hadn't hexed 
him, much less listen to him and offer help.  Harry is shocked by Malfoy 
crying--too shocked to move and leave, which I think would be more what he 
would have done if he'd had his wits about him.

As for showing a huge amount of remorse, I'd say that's very specifically 
lacking in the book.  He's horrified at what he's done at the time, but once 
Malfoy is healed really avoids much thought about the matter at all.  He 
protests his detentions (which he says he does not deserve because he is not 
a liar and a cheat--the reason Snape gives for punishing him), runs to hide 
the book where he got the curse.

What he feels about what he did is mostly twinges of conscience that 
personally I find really interesting but aren't dwelt on by Harry himself. 
I would never describe him as feeling a huge amount of remorse.

Jenni:
>
> Draco however tried to use the Cruciatus Curse on Harry knowing full
> well what that curse does and so therefore would have had full
> responsibility for his actions. Draco also attacked Harry on the
> train, stunned him and roughed him up (kicked him, broke his nose).
> Draco feels no remorse for this. Even laughs about it!

Magpie:
And it's a sign of Ron's friendship, apparently, that he keeps himself from 
laughing.  Others laugh at the Slytherins when they're unconscious and 
turned into slugs.  I think JKR clearly puts both of these things on the 
same level of kid-fighting where no one feels much remorse and the victims 
feel more humiliated for being gotten the better of than lasting pain.

Harry does, of course, attempt Crucio elsewhere in canon.  I've come to 
think of that being a common instinct in adolescent Wizard boys who want to 
make other people hurt the way they do.  Harry has that kind of feeling a 
lot himself.  I think in both cases it's actually very different from the 
way Bellatrix throws a Crucio, and that that would always show in how the 
curse came out.

Jenni:
>
> Harry nor any of the Trio would have done such a thing. Yeah, they
> may have fought with Draco or his crew, but they would never lash
> out unless attacked first.

Magpie:
Obviously Harry has tried to throw Crucio so would conisider throwing it. 
And you're stretching "attack first" to mean "provoked" so imo that's not 
accurate. (Presumably the way they're provoked justifies an attack unlike 
the way another person might be provoked to attack them.)  Harry and the 
Twins both attacked Malfoy in OotP because they were provoked, but they were 
not attacked first.  Nor were they attacked first in GoF. The Twins cause 
fairly longterm damage to Montague without having been attacked themselves. 
Harry hexes Filch, who can't attack at all.  The Twins don't mind having a 
bit of fun with Dudley. Draco's two attacks on Harry in HBP are actually 
kind of unique in that for once he's not really just starting things.


-m