JKR and the boys (and girls)/Harry, Draco and bathroom

[sistermagpie]

No: HPFGUIDX 162364

> Pippin
> who also can't find any canon that Ginny is blessed with natural
> beauty beyond what is normal for a healthy sixteen year 
> old girl

Magpie:
Okay, I'm willing to go with the idea that Hermione's entrance isn't 
supposed to be as stunning as it comes across to me (the whole 
storyline including Hermione's appearance still reads like wish-
fulfillment to me), but you really don't think Ginny is supposed to 
be blessed with natural beauty beyond just being 16 and healthy?  
Ginny's beauty is referenced by characters with no reason to want to 
admit she's pretty (by your own claims Harry can find Pansy ugly at 
the ball because he finds her personally repulsive, yet Pansy and 
Blaise can't do the same for blood-traitor Ginny, just as Draco 
can't do the same for Hermione in GoF).  If I'm not supposed to 
think Ginny is exceptionally pretty with her popularity, the 
discussions about her looks and boyfriends, and the number of times 
the word is used to describe her by others I don't know what I'm 
supposed to think about her.  Harry Potter does not live in a 
universe where being a 16-year-old girl and healthy endows you with 
good looks (nor do I).  Girls who are pretty are described as being 
so.  Ginny, like Lily, is popular for her many charms (not just 
beauty) which may be invisible to me but are not a product of the 
Harry-filter. 

Shelley:
This is along my point. I think people are polarizing Hermione. On 
one end to say that she's got "no girl friends", and even to 
marginalize the one that clearly IS in Canon (between Hermione and 
Ginny), and on the other end to suddenly make Hermione to be "one 
hottie" at the Ball. If you take those two extremes, then indeed you 
have a point to lose faith in JKR as a writer. My point was, I don't 
see this "polarization" or "extremes" in the books at
all, not even slightly or stereotypically. 

Magpie:
I didn't mean to be that extreme, though my language was so that was 
my fault.  I didn't mean Hermione was the one hottie at the ball.  I 
do think she came across as more smooth than just a girl who cleaned 
up well--though at least with Hermione I can accept that perhaps 
that's partly due to Harry's previous relationship with her.  I have 
not gotten rid of Hermione's one girl friendship with Ginny, but I 
stand by her not having girlfriends. I think JKR happily writes in 
stereotypes and polarizations plenty of times in the books, and see 
no hints I ought to be imagining a life with girlfriends for 
Hermione just because I think that's more normal for a girl.  It's 
not normal for plenty of girls, and everything about Hermione in 
canon indicates that besides Ginny (who reads almost like a sister-
in-law to me) Hermione does not have girlfriends.  That even seems 
to come into play in the plot.

Shelley:
In the other post, one person mentioned a writer who said "I am not
responsible for what the characters do between chapters" is exactly 
the point here- Rowling doesn't have to show every move Hermione 
makes when she's not with Harry. In the same way that we can 
reasonably assume Harry is reading books, we can assume Hermione is 
talking to girls. 

Magpie:
I don't agree that we can and I don't.  We use what we see and 
extrapolate from that what's going on where we don't see.  Since 
Harry is shown being not particularly interested in books in his 
spare time (and we see a lot of his daily life) it does not become 
equally plausible canon that he's reading for pleasure when we don't 
see him just because we can't prove he doesn't do it.  Just the 
same, Hermione is characterized as having two friends who are boys 
and also as having a friendship with her friend Ron's sister.  We 
see/hear plenty of stuff about her downtime apart from that and she 
does not have other girlfriends.  We *do* get information about this 
sort of thing.  How Hermione spends her freetime is kind of a 
running joke in canon. We get that Hermione keeps up to date on 
what's going on in school.  She's socially savvy in a lot of ways.  
That's doesn't give her friendships we don't see.

SM: 
> Sorry, but this is one of the reasons that I don't often engage on 
> this list. It would be helpful to pay a little bit more close 
> attention to the books, and to the comments of the author.

Magpie:
Well, gee, that's a nice way to start a post.  You don't like to 
engage on the list because everyone doesn't share your opinions 
about the characters, and you've decided to preemptively assume that 
that means they haven't read the books or can't listen to the 
author. 

SM:
Draco Malfoy tried to kill Albus Dumbledore. He did so by smuggling
in poison that almost killed Ron in error; and by smuggling in a
necklace that almost killed Katie Bell. He lets Death Eaters into the
castle who almost kill Bill Weasley. This is not the work of a nice
kid.

Magpie:
I don't quite understand this tack.  It seems like you're just 
telling us that Draco's a jerk as if this is the only thing that 
matters if you're looking at who does what in a scene. What would 
Draco being nice change with regards to that?

SM:
The train scene in the Goblet of Fire? Draco has just threatened
Harry's life -- and referenced how delighted he was that Cedric
Diggory was murdered. It's part of Draco's pattern - he says vile
things to people when he is flanked by toady/thugs Crabbe and Goyle -
he calls Hermione a mudblood...

Magpie:
Well, I have actually read the books and I still don't get this 
death threat Draco's supposedly making.  What Draco does is to say 
that the Dark Lord's back and predict that he will be after Harry 
and his friends--having already killed Cedric. I don't actually 
think he's expressing simple delight in the scene based on canon, 
but I can allow that your interpretation is different there. I also 
think that calling Crabbe and Goyle "thugs and toadies" is 
editorializing.  Draco does have a pattern of saying vile things to 
people, but that's what Betsy referenced.  In this scene his saying 
vile things gets him attacked physically, which isn't self-defense. 
Draco's awful in the scene, but it seems like the death threat only 
pops into existance as an attempt to find a way the other kids are 
defending their lives by hexing the Slytherins intead of just hexing 
them out of anger and dislike.

SM:
You can't recall a case of self-defense? Well, what about the fact
that at the end of the Order of the Phoenix "Firstly, Malfoy, Crabbe
and Goyle, who had clearly been waiting all week for the opportunity
to strike without teacher witnesses, attempted to ambush Harry
halfway down the train as he made his way back from the toilet. The
attack might have succeeded....."In regards to the ferret scene, 
Harry, Ron and Hermione are minding
their own business when Malfoy initiates the whole scene, attacks
Ron's father, then insults Ron's mother (twice), and then attacks
Harry from behind...? This wouldn't be a case of "real" self-defense?

Magpie:
She couldn't recall a scene of self-defense and you provided two, 
though it's actually Fake!Moody who attacks Draco after he throws a 
hex at Harry.  Draco is hexing first in that scene.  Elsewhere other 
kids hex first.

SM:
Obviously Barty Crouch, Junior is trying to establish himself as the
friend of Harry and the enemy of Death Eaters/Malfoys....I think
turning Malfoy into a ferret was poetic justice! As for him being
seriously hurt, we don't even hear about him having to go to the
hospital wing.

Magpie:
Actually, you're playing down another main aspect of what Barty's 
doing there, imo.  He's not just establishing himself as a friend of 
Harry and an enemy of the DEs/Malfoys by administering poetic 
justice and not seriously hurting the poor tyke at all.  He's imo 
letting loose his true sadistic nature by hurting Draco to punish 
him for his father's disloyalty to Voldemort.  He's acting like the 
real fanatical DE that he is there, and yet one might almost be 
tempted to defend the main villain of the book if one enjoys this 
bout of tormenting.  Malfoy does not suffer longterm damage, but the 
wording indicates pain, even allowing for the way Rowling's being a 
little unrealistic about the effect this would have on an actual 
ferret. It's a great hint to the real villain in the book and not 
only does it go easily by because it's Malfoy, it's probably the 
only action of a DE that's staunchly defended in all of canon even 
while other characters' actions are encouraged to be viewed based on 
whether they're good or bad. If Crouch had bounced Neville in a 
scene I think his cover would have been blown for the reader then 
and there.


SM:
And as for Hermione being cruel, if one read the
books, one would be familiar with the fact that it was Hermione who
approved Professor McGonagall's actions in rescuing Malfoy from
Crouch/Moody. ("he could have really hurt Malfoy, though. It was
good, really, that Professor McGonagall stopped it---."

Magpie:
I assume Betsy was referring to other actions of Hermione's, not her 
approval of McGonagall's stopping the ferret bounce when she said 
she thought Hermione was cruel--actions one would also be familiar 
with after having read the book.

SM:
In the next incident, Malfoy and Harry attack each other
simultaneously, and when Hermione's teeth grow, Snape shows up,
insults Hermione (a true Slytherin), punishes the Gryffindors but not
the Slytherins.

Magpie:
Not sure what Snape exactly has to do with self-defense here. Harry 
takes out his wand first in response to Draco's calling Hermione a 
Mudblood (and he's also stressed out at other things). They throw 
their hexes at the same time.

SM:
It is to JKR's credit that she shows that even Draco Malfoy is
redeemable.

Magpie:
In his universe, Draco's not even exceptionally bad. Pre-HBP it 
wasn't uncommon for people to claim anyone who thought he was 
redeemable (or would be important) wasn't listening closely to the 
author. (I also don't think that any of JKR's words about Snape 
indicate that he can't DDM or have loved Lily.) The author's words 
can be ambiguous--just as canon often begs for multiple viewpoints 
on scenes.

> Alla:

> He indeed almost killed someone violently, but I absolutely do not
> think that he went one ounce beyond defending himself in this 
scene.
> 
> He almost killed someone because he used the spell that he did not
> know the meaning of. Stupid is as stupid does, no argument from me.
> 
> But I completely disagree that it was just reaching for the spell 
> that
> takes care of things. I think tripping and wet on the floor counts
> pretty good for "losing control"

Magpie:
I meant losing control emotionally.  I didn't mean he always had the 
upper hand in the fight.  Meaning, Harry doesn't lose it and 
intentionally hurt Malfoy through his own anger or rage.  He just 
chooses this spell to stop Malfoy's--and suddenly the bathroom's 
covered in blood. I think when Harry loses more control in that 
direction he's the one throwing Crucios, as he does at Snape.  In 
this scene, to me, it seems like Malfoy's the one emotionally undone.

-m