The Train Scene GoF/ Hero vs Anti-Hero/Draco, Ginny, & Tom, oh my!

[horridporrid03]

No: HPFGUIDX 162429

> >>Betsy Hp:
> > The interesting thing to me, is that the thing that immediately 
> > sprang to mind reading your reply is that this is exactly how the 
> > blood-purists feel.  They're acting in self-defense against the 
> > influx of muggleborns threatening their way of life and their 
> > loved ones.  Sure, the muggleborns haven't attacked *yet*, but   
> > their attachment to their muggle families suggests that they     
> > would betray the pure bloods to the stake.  So they pure-bloods, 
> > out of love, hit first.

> >>Alla:
> I find this truly amasing. Refer me to some canon for muggle borns 
> threatening the lifes of pure bloods, please? Not what they 
> **think** but what muggle borns tell to them.
> Hermione threatening Draco or something like that? Because I 
> remember quite the opposite happening so far.

Betsy Hp:
Oh, it's not there of course.  But fear is what all bigotry is based 
on.  And the WW is built around fear of Muggles.  It seems like most 
of their laws are based around keeping their very existance hidden.  
So when Hermione brings her parents right into the heart of the 
British WW (Diagon Alley) that could be seen as threatening.

I'm not arguing that this sort of thinking is *logical*, but I am 
saying that the hit first mentality is the fear-filled mind set of 
the bully or the bigot.  Which is why I see nothing noble or good in 
the Trio and the twins acting in such a manner on the train in GoF.  

Not that it means that the Trio and the twins are doomed to be 
bullies or bigots.  They're children after all, and still learning.  
But it's the reason I see such behavior as something to be discussed 
rather than winked at.

> >>Betsy Hp:
> > <SNIP>
> > I mean, it's not like I don't understand the reactions of Harry 
> > and Ron and Hermione.  I just don't like the dismissal of it, or 
> > even worse, the praise of it.
> > <snip>

> >>Alla:
> And I don't like the dismissal of Draco's actions, I do not like 
> dismissal of him threatening Hermione, I do not like the dismissal 
> of him coming up to Gryffs appartment uninvited, all three of them 
> and starting talking the crap he did.
> I do not like the dismissal of that.
> <snip>

Betsy Hp:
I don't feel that I do dismiss Draco's words, or even his actions.  
If I were a monitor on the train (supposing there were such a thing 
<g>) I'd have words, seperately, with both groups.

However, I *do* feel that the actions of the Trio and the twins go 
beyond what Draco's words demanded.  If they'd threatened Draco and 
Co. with wands,  if they'd hussled them out of their compartment, I 
think that would read as more on par with Draco's words.

> >>Alla:
> Do I praise Gryffs actions? I  do not know. I most certainly do not 
> reprimand them though. I think that they acted in response to 
> provocation, I think that under circumstances that was the only 
> possible way they could have react.
> <snip>

Betsy Hp:
But that's exactly what I'm talking about.  The Trio and the twins 
did *not* behave correctly.  Neither did Draco, but that's not even 
an issue.  (I don't think anyone's trying to say Draco behaved as he 
should have.)  But no matter what Draco said to them, there's no 
excuse for hexing someone who's not even drawn his wand.  Or hexing 
someone in the back as the twins do.

I'm going to pull in a comment Eggplant made in another thread, 
because I think speaking to it will help me claify my view point (at 
least for myself <g>).

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/162423
> >>Eggplant:
> <snip>
> By the way, when the book makes its transition into the Media Who's
> Name Must Not Be Mentioned, at least on this list, I keep thinking 
> how Quentin Tarantino would direct that scene. Buckets and buckets 
> of blood! I can only hope.

Betsy Hp:
I love Quentin Tarantino.  I also love that scene in "Unforgiven" 
where Clint Eastwood's character shoots and kills a man and then he 
and Gene Hackman's character have this exchange: (from memory so 
probably not totally accurate)
"I hope you're proud of yourself, you just shot an unarmed man!"
"Well he should have armed himself..."

It's a scene where you totally cheer on Clint's badassedness, even 
while recognizing he did just cold-bloodedly shoot down someone who 
wasn't trying to shoot him.

But here's the thing, Clint in "Unforgiven" plays an anti-hero.  
Quentin Tarantino is pretty committed to telling stories about the 
anti-hero as well.  And Harry?  Even on his bad days, Harry is a pure 
hero.  Nothing "anti" about him.  That's why he's no good at throwing 
a Crucio; that's probably why he's not all that good at Occlumency.

So that's why it doesn't sit right with me that Harry and Ron and 
Hermione and Fred and George shoot Draco and Crabbe and Goyle, while 
those three haven't drawn their weapons, haven't even started to draw 
their weapons, and don't even realize that two of their attackers 
(the attackers that are two years older than them, of course) are 
sneaking up behind them.  It's beneath "hero" behavior.  And, as per 
the Sorting Hat anyway, it's not very Gryffindor-ish of them. 

> >>Betsy Hp:
> > Oh, Ginny is in the same boat Draco is.  She's fully under the 
> > influence and control of Tom Riddle or Voldemort. 
> > <snip>

> >>Alla:
> Not in my opinion. Draco started his service to Voldemort 
> voluntarily, bursting with joy on the train. Ginny AFAIK did not. 
> Even if you think that Ginny stole the diary on her own ( which I 
> disagree with), there is no support IMO that Ginny voluntarily went 
> under Tom Riddle control in the beginning.

Betsy Hp:
Just as Draco was eager to be of use to the great Dark Lord, Ginny 
eagerly poured her heart out to dear Tom.  Both Ginny and Draco were 
mistaken in their trust of Voldemort, both Ginny and Draco tried to 
get around him, both failed to seek out help, and both nearly brought 
about the death of fellow students.

I really do think there's a parallel there. (Though it seems to me 
JKR is using Draco's experience as a chance to explore Draco's 
character and show some growth on his part.  Too bad she didn't do 
something similar on page with Ginny.)

Betsy Hp