Harry, Draco and bathroom

[sistermagpie]

No: HPFGUIDX 162471


> Alla:
> I must specify that I am talking **only** about self defense 
> situation, so in situation of self-defense if Harry **still* 
decides 
> that bastard like Malfoy, who threatened to kill him more than 
once, 
> who did at least some bodily damage to him at least once, should 
not 
> be killed, well – great.
> 
> If Harry would be trained enough, methodical enough to spare 
Malfoy's 
> life , while in danger of being hurt himself – great again.
> 
> What I completely disagree with is that Harry in the situation of 
> self defense has some sort of **obligation** to feel that way, 
unless 
> he chooses to do so.

Magpie:
That is what I'm disagreeing with, actually.  Not that self-defense 
isn't important to the issue--it is.  But beyond that I think that 
as a human being Harry does have an obligation to feel some 
connection to Malfoy on that level.  Sometimes humans kill each 
other and sometimes it's the right thing to do.  But even if you've 
decided killing is right you can still respect that you've killed 
another person who had that worth.  Earlier someone brought up 
battle fatigue and was told that battle trauma had nothing to do 
with killing other people, only with the fear of being killed and 
losing loved ones.  But I have read killing other people is a big 
part of the trauma of battle.  It doesn't make the soldiers wrong or 
murderers, but it's not so simple as saying that because they've got 
reason for killing these other people, or are defending themselves, 
it's not killing.

That's what I think is important for Harry here--particularly since 
he's supposed to be powered by love. I don't think it's about 
choosing to feel this, because if he didn't naturally feel something 
at almost killing someone even with the self-defense element in this 
situation here, imo, he would be more like Voldemort.  
 
> Magpie:
> On this I agree with her. I think Harry should feel
> more than just stupid--as should Malfoy himself for almost killing
> Katie and Ron.
> <SNIP>
> 
> Alla:
> 
> You are arguing that Harry and Draco should feel the same amount 
of 
> remorse, while one was defending himself, while another was doing 
> assassination thing?
> I completely disagree.

Magpie:
I'm not saying they should feel the same *amount* of remorse. I'm 
saying that outside of the entirely different circumstances of their 
actions there's the basic connection to other people that shouldn't 
imo be entirely dismissed with "it was self-defense" or in Draco's 
case "it was an accident."  Even if both boys were in a situation 
where killing was just part of war it would imo mean something. If 
Harry is the kind of boy who fires off a curse at someone as he did 
there, splitting them open and almost exsanguinating them and 
doesn't feel something then I'd worry about him. Relatedly, I don't 
agree with the assumed Malfoy who'd be able to be equally cold-
blooded in torturing or killing Harry. There are things in common in 
the two situations, even if they're not the same.

> Alla:
> I guess we have to agree to disagree. I do cut blank check to 
person 
> who defends himself and if Harry would not have been stupid 
wanting 
> to try **unknown curse** before hand, I would have cut him that 
blank 
> check.
> 
> That is what Sectusemptra added to that scene for me – that Harry 
was 
> stupid before to want to try it, nothing more, really. IMO of 
course.
> 
> 
> It also makes sense to me what Pippin said about Harry not 
practicing 
> enough this year, but since the reason IMO he did not practice was 
> investigating Malfoy misdeeds, it is still comes back to Malfoy as 
> the main reason of his own misery  in the ironic way IMO.

Magpie:
I don't know whether I'd chalk up the use of Sectumsempra to Malfoy--
that seems a stretch.  To me it seems like the use of it goes not to 
Harry's obsession with Malfoy but his obsession with the Prince.  
Harry has been practicing spells--he wants to learn the Prince's.  
But of course in many other ways Malfoy has brought his misery on 
himself, absolutely. Even if there are places he hasn't literally 
done that, you can't avoid the obvious fact that Draco is getting 
exactly what he always asked for--and that's what's making him 
miserable, not Harry. But still it's important for Harry to not just 
figure well, look at all the bad things he's doing--what I do 
doesn't matter.


> > Magpie:
> > All we know about any lessons from Bellatrix is that she's been 
> > teaching Draco Occlumency. I don't think you can use that as 
proof 
> > that Draco has become a master at Crucio.  Harry takes pleasure 
> from 
> > other peoples' pain too. He does it a particular lot in OotP, 
yet 
> > still can't sustain a Crucio, because there is an established 
> > difference between his impulse and Bellatrix's more advanced 
> > sadism.  Ironically Draco often seems to me depicted as more 
> > squeamish than Harry, not less.
> 
> Alla:
> 
> I am not sure we can **prove** too many things in canon with 
absolute 
> certainty as to certain characters especially.
> 
> Do I think that Bella, who is a Crucio expert could have taught 
Draco 
> that as well? Sure, it is just speculating, but Bella dreams of 
> sacrificing her sons for the cause, why not start preparing Draco?
> 
> The fact that not anybody else, but Crucio expert was teaching him 
> IMO makes this speculation plausible enough.

Magpie:
It's plausible that she could want to teach it but I think the 
conclusion drawn from that idea flies in the face of the character 
as he's being written in HBP. Instead of someone trying out evil for 
the first time and not being ready to be a DE it makes him farther 
along already, imo. HBP deals with Draco's trying out his own skills 
and he does show skill in the bathroom, but nothing beyond Hogwarts 
level.  There's no big moment where he reveals this surprising, 
awful new skill of Crucio.  He's described, imo, just like Harry 
usually seems described in scenes where he's tried to use it.The 
Crucio is the end of the big paragraph describing the scuffle.  

Actually, if you look at the Crucios by true adult sadists in the 
books they're always cast at points of more calmness.  Barty simply 
points his wand at the spider, Bellatrix raises her wand, Umbridge 
raises her wand, Voldemort points his wand.  It makes sense as a 
torture spell--it's the cold-blooded, conscious, almost detached 
desire to inflict pain on someone.  As opposed to when both boys try 
to cast it--their faces are contorted, they're in mid-fight or mid-
chase--they're desperate and in pain themselves. 

Alla:

> 
> Oh, and of course I do see that Draco has a potential to be a 
great 
> sadist in canon. All I have to do is to reread his role in 
Buckbeak 
> story. He seemed very pleased to me of Hagrid situation and when 
he 
> learned that innocent animal is going to be executed.

Magpie:
He's not doing the executing.  He's certainly enjoying making Hagrid 
suffer as many characters enjoy making others suffer at other 
times.  But there's a difference between being pleased that Hagrid, 
the teacher you don't like, is going to lose his big animal that 
hurt you and being a torturer of animals or people.  Just as Harry's 
taking pleasure in Malfoy's suffering when his father is arrested 
doesn't make him able to torture him.
 
> > Magpie:
> > I don't think he's forgotten that he didn't consider Draco's 
threat 
> > to kill him realistic.  He does think (correctly) that Draco is 
> > behind the long-distance murder attempts but I don't recall any 
> > hints that Draco has become personally frightening to Harry in 
this 
> > way. The stakes are raised in this fight, and that's clear, but 
I 
> > think if I'm supposed to think that Harry thought he barely got 
out 
> > with his life in the way you describe it would be there in the 
text 
> > instead of what is there, which is, "And then he was going to 
hit 
> me 
> > with a Crucio, so I zapped him!"  
> 
> Alla:
> 
> Um, that is the possible reaction, but that is not the only 
reaction 
> Harry can have if he felt threatened by Draco. He already learned 
> that Draco is capable of hurting him, he knows that Draco promised 
> revenge, etc.
> 
> As I said I do not see the fact that Harry feels twinges of 
> conscience as proof that he was not threatened for his life and 
> sanity.

Magpie:
But books aren't made up of what's not specifically ruled out.  The 
story's made up of what is there.  If JKR is writing a scene where 
Harry is afraid Draco Malfoy is going to kill him and felt 
threatened for his life and sanity she'd write that.  She didn't.  
She wrote Harry feeling quite fine when Draco actually threatened 
his life. When he was at Draco's mercy on the train the one adverb 
used to describe him is "absurdly" with no descriptions of terror. 
Draco's past are the opposite of reasons for Harry to fear for his 
life--and though he doesn't admit fears for his life to other people 
they're always admitted by the narrator. Harry's feared he was about 
to die more than once in canon and it's described as such a moment.  
In the bathroom he's fighting with him and we just get...a fight.  
He's in action, fighting. When Malfoy comes at him with Crucio it's 
yeah, Harry in trouble, but he bellows his own curse and then goes 
straight into "No!" at the effects of the spell. As readers we know 
what Crucio is--Harry's felt it before--so I assumed he was avoiding 
what he'd experienced. Although Draco's Crucio attempt is obviously 
serious and wrong, it's ironically Harry who introduces the "WTF was 
THAT?" element into the fight for both of them.

-m