ESE, DDM, OFH, or Grey? Snape with Lifedebt

[Sydney]

No: HPFGUIDX 162492


> Sydney:
> 
> If the story was about Snape, yes.  But the story's about Harry.
> OFH!Snape has no payoff for Harry as that's already who he thinks he
> is (including life debt);

> Sarah:
> I don't see Harry being sold on OFH whatsoever.  I think it's crystal
> clear that Harry has bought ESE hook, line and sinker. 

Sydney:

I really don't think Harry's as concerned with the fine gradations of
Snapeness as we are!  For Harry to go from, "He's an evil bastard for
Voldemort" to "He's an evil bastard for himself" isn't exactly a
character-shaking moment to counter "He would never forgive Snape,
never".  It could play some part in strategy but no part whatsoever in
Harry's growth as a character.  It would be stronger just to leave
Snape ESE!, because no change in attitude at all would be better than
such a weak and subtle one.


> Sydney:
> 
> My point is that Lily being endangered *was* the effect of the Life
> Debt and what *made* it a motive.
> 
> Sarah:
> OK, I see what you're saying, and that might actually be the strongest
> argument for Snape/Lily that I have ever seen.  But, you're making a
> lot of assumptions about the machinations of the Life Debt, and so am
> I.  :)  You think it is in the style of the DADA curse, I think it is
> in the style of the UV and Goblet.


Sydney:

Well, of course we all have only assumptions to go for the Life Debt!
 I think though it's more consistent with what we've seen for it to
work in an ambiguous manner than in a clear one.  Dumbledore talks
about it as deep and mysterious, as Snape 'feeling' that he could
repay it, and that Harry 'may' be glad that he saved Peter.  So far it
seems to have had no effect on Peter's actions or decisions whatsoever.

I also think it's much more consistent with Rowling's writing and what
she's trying to do.  She likes to use magic to set up plots and to get
her out of storytelling difficulties (the Goblet, the Vow, Pensives).
 She likes to use it peripherally as symbolic of stuff-- Love Potions
for hormones for example!  When she has magic affect someone
psychologically she makes it extrememly clear what's going on-- the
character is plainly in the grip of some sort of powerful narcotic
like Dobby punishing himself or Barty Sr. under Imperius, and such
types of magic are cleary negative and evil because they rob the
character of choice.

"It is our choices that show who we are", says Dumbledore, and it
would be a mockery of him and everything he stood for if he trusted
Snape based on a magical enslavement or compulsion rather than on a
choice.  


> Sydney:
> 
> Yeah, that's the point.  Not to make Harry barf mind you, but to
> effect some sort of turn around in Harry's hatred for Snape, which has
> been a potent consistent strand of conflict from one end of the books
> to the other.
> 
> Sarah:
> We differ again.  I don't think that Harry, upon finding out that
> Snape loved Lily, would suddenly think, "Gee maybe he's not such a bad
> guy after all."  I think he'd be grossed out to the max, and hate
> Snape more than ever.

Sydney:

I give Harry a little more credit.  If he found out that Snape really
was in  an agony of remorse, that he moved heaven and earth to try to
save Lily, that it was the defining thing of his life, and that from
that day to this he'd been filled with self-hatred for what he'd done
and devoted his life to bringing down Voldemort for her sake... yeah,
I would hope he would at least change his opinion of Snape as nothing
more than an evil self-centered git.  


> Sydney:
> 
> Snape was '*cleared* by [the] council', he wasn't going to go to
> Azkaban.
> 
> Sarah:
> Would things have stayed that way, though?  If say, Snape worked for
> Dumbledore for a few months or a year and then said he would see him
> later?  I do not think that Snape would be an unemployable outcast,
> but I do think that Dumbledore is a harsh mistress, so to speak.

Sydney:

You think Dumbledore was somehow blackmailing Snape, that if he didn't
stay at Hogwarts he would change his testimony and get him convicted?!
The same Dumbledore that leaves people to make their own choices (to a
fault!) and trusts Snape completely?  

Sarah:

> Regarding "comfort:" Snape speaks of his comfortable job in chapter 2
> of HBP.  He might be lying for the benefit of the Black sisters, but
> I'm inclined to believe the basic outline.  Which is basically, why
> not stay at Hogwarts?  I had Dumbledore, I had no Azkaban, who
> wouldn't stay?


Sydney:

Um, Snape?  Snape who hates kids, who is unhappy teaching, who is a
potions genius and a healer and probably one of the world's leading
experts in the Dark Arts?  Snape who spent years of misery at Hogwarts
(I tend to see Snape stuck at Hogwarts under Dumbledore's orders like
Sirius stuck at his mother's house ditto).  Snape who if he's been
shown to crave anything, it's personal excellence and personal
acknowlegement, neither of which is normally associated with teaching
others? Snape who is burning with some kind of resentment against
Dumbledore not giving him the DADA job?  That Snape?  One line of
dialogue from a double-agent to a loyal follower isn't enough to
contradict six books worth of actual character establishment for me. 
"Comfortable" is the last word I'd use for Snape past, present, or
future.  

-- Sydney, oooh, the weather's cleared up!