The Train Scene GoF/ Hero vs Anti-Hero/Draco, Ginny, & Tom, oh my!

[wynnleaf]

No: HPFGUIDX 162494


> wynnleaf:
> <SNIP>
> > Remember how terrible Draco was to Harry on the train in HBP?  
Why, 
> he
> > shouldn't have felt threatened by Harry at all, right?  After 
all,
> > Harry was just hiding in his train compartment eavesdropping -- 
> Harry
> > wasn't really a threat.  What had he ever done to Draco??  
(hmm)  So
> > Draco froze Harry and kicked him (which is worse - to kick 
someone
> > who's unconscious, or frozen? - I don't know).  And then Draco 
left
> > him there and went on to Hogwarts.  And this shows us how mean 
and
> > evil Draco is, right???
> 
> 
> Alla:
> 
> Um, yes, staying away for too long did not work out for me :)
> 
> Harry invaded Slytherins' privacy, he did not belong in their 
> apartment, just as Draco and his goons did not belong in Gryffs' 
> apartment and while I understand why Harry was there from his POV 
( 
> investigation of bad guys is worth the risk to me), I totally, 
> totally understand Darco's reaction here. I think I am being 
> perfectly consistent in evaluating these scenes.

wynnleaf
If I had not read your other posts regarding Harry and the trio's 
reponses in GOF, I might assume that you mean that you *understand* 
Draco's actions in HBP, while not *condoning* them.  But since you 
appear to feel that you both understand *and* condone Harry's 
actions in GOF, I must assume that, to be "perfectly consistent," 
you condone Draco's actions as well.  Therefore, it must be okay for 
students who feel themselves threatened in any way to hex one 
another into unconsciousness, kick and injure an incapacitated 
student, and leave an injured person alone without help, and neglect 
to notify anyone to help that person.

Well, to each his or her own I suppose.

> Alla:
> 
> Just to make one moment clear - I do not pretend anything here, 
this 
> how I honestly see this scene.
> 
> And not necessarily the immediate attempt to do them in of course -
 
> but the threat that is coming this second, tomorrow or in a month.
> 
> I submit that Trio and of course not Harry was not in the state of 
> mind to calculate when this threat is coming, just that they saw 
red 
> in their minds and reacted accordingly.

wynnleaf
Well, no, that's simply not true.  If they all felt that they were 
indeed under physical threat, then they did *not* act accordingly.  
None of the Gryffindors used defensive spells.  If it had been a 
true threat, and they were faced with people ready to do them 
physical harm, then their use of spells was abysmally stupid.  
Particularly since none of them were expecting others to fire off 
spells as well.

Amazing isn't it that if Harry and Co. truly thought themselves 
under threat, they made such a major mistake that *none* of them 
used defensive spells?  Even when faced with true threats of 
impending physical harm with Voldemort, Harry makes no such mistake 
and uses real defensive spells.  

I could perhaps believe that they all thought they were under a 
physical threat if maybe one or two had fired off those hexes and 
jinxes, but most had used true defensive ones.  But the fact that 
*no one* used a true defensive spell?  Sorry, it defies belief that 
they all made such a stupid mistake at the same time.

No, they didn't think they were under physical threat.  That's why 
*none* of them used defensive spells.

Alla
> I am not saying that it was full self-defense, just that they 
indeed 
> saw the threat in their minds.

wynnleaf
Once again, you're saying that they saw a true threat, but *all* of 
them were so foolish that *none* of them used a defensive spell, 
even though we see no such foolishness when they are in fact under 
true threat - Harry in GOF, or the others in OOTP.

Alla
> That is in my view of course.

wynnleaf
You are welcome to believe it of course, but I do think it takes a 
lot of stretching of belief to think that they all fired off non-
defensive spells in response to what they saw as a true threat.
> 
wynnleaf
>