The Train Scene GoF / Draco's Crying (long)

[horridporrid03]

No: HPFGUIDX 162559

> >>Betsy Hp:
> > <snip>
> > But here's the thing, while Ender *was* facing dangerous         
> > bullies..., Draco is neither... Draco isn't strong enough, and    
> > Harry isn't weak enough.
> > <snip>
> > Harry is in danger of being annoyed. Possibly being pissed off.   
> > That's all Draco brings to the table in this scene.

> >>bboyminn:
> That's part of the point I was trying to make. Draco isn't 
> the standard generic schoolyard bully. This is more of a
> grudge match rather than the big kid picking on the skinny
> kid.
> <snip>
> The real heart of my argument was in the part you cut. The part     
> that went something like this-
> 
> "On the train, there is without a doubt a great deal of
> ego, pride, and even machismo involved. But what is
> really happening is, this is everyone's way of telling
> Draco that they will not be cowed or intimidated...."
> <snip>

Betsy Hp:
Aaah.  Okay, but this means it isn't about bullying at all then, 
right?  Not between the Trio and Draco and Co., anyway.  Because, as 
you say, Draco cannot bully Harry.  It's a grudge match more than 
anything.  And when has Draco *ever* won one of these grudge 
matches?  I'm pretty sure that up until HBP, the answer is never.

So I think, in this scene Draco is playing the role of Scapegoat.  
The Trio cannot hit the Death Eaters like this.  They cannot hit 
Voldemort like this.  But they *can* hit Draco.  They can show their 
utter contempt for Draco's side of the war by treating him with utter 
contempt (and his body with utter contempt).  So this isn't a 
reaction based on terror on the Trio's part.  It's rage.  Which is, 
as I've said, understandable after what the Trio (and especially 
Harry) have been through.  But it's not praiseworthy behavior.

But this does raise an interesting question:

> >>Quick_Silver:
> <snip>
> The thing that intrigues me, if you will, about that scene is that
> Draco should have no doubt what's going to happen to him and his
> friends. The point was made as early as PS that the Trio would
> respond with physical force to insults (the wizards duel), then
> reiterated by Ron in CoS (the slug curse), and by Hermione slapping
> Draco in PoA (for insulting Hagrid). 
> <snip>
> So Draco and co. walk into the compartment of his equals (I don't
> think there's any bullying going on here) and Draco starts shooting
> his mouth off. He ignores Harry ordering him and then boom the      
> attack occurs.
> <snip>

Betsy Hp:
I'm fascinated by that question, Quick_Silver.  It's part of what's 
kept me intrigued with Draco throughout the series.  I don't think I 
have a definitive answer.  The great Elkins wrote a post about "Draco 
the Nutter" you can find here:

http://www.theennead.com/elkins/hp/archives/000213.html
or here if you want to follow the thread:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/51687

where she points out that Draco seems a bit mad whenever he foolishly 
bursts out with these pro-Voldemort sentiments right where he so 
obviously shouldn't be saying such things.  In that post she rather 
cleverly predicits Draco's HBP breakdown and suggests that perhaps 
Draco isn't as committed to Voldemort as he thinks he should be.  
Hence the stupid, and even more stupidly timed, pro-Voldemort 
speeches.

I wouldn't say Draco is *consciously* making a decision to stand in 
harm's way, and put his face in the direct path of Harry's fist.  But 
I do think his outbursts speak to an underlying pathos (is that the 
word I'm looking for?) of some sort.

(Gosh, Draco is so complex in some ways.  He comes from one of the 
more normal and loving families in the series except that oops! 
they're members of a totally evil cult.  That has to mess a kid up at 
least a little. <g>)

> >>Quick_Silver:
> I agree with you about the treatment of bodies (although it should 
> be noted Draco did show contempt for Hermione touching him with his
> badge/Mudblood insult...a little reversal perhaps?).
> That being said I think the most interesting thing about the scene 
> is that we hear nothing more of it...at least not from Draco (not   
> that I remember
I think Harry references back to it?...I'll have to 
> check).
> <snip>

Betsy Hp:
I think part of the reason Draco doesn't refer back to it is that I 
doubt he's all that surprised.  We the readers (or some of us, anyway 
<g>) might expect more noble actions from our heroes, but Draco sees 
the Trio as loathsome and brutish.  So there's nothing in their 
actions to surprise him.

For that matter, Harry sees Draco in a similar light, so the 
treatment he receives at Draco's hand wouldn't have surprised him 
either.  

And (and for me this is the huge icky part) I think this sort of 
thing is normal in the WW.  Do we ever see an adult chide a child for 
behaving with what Steve termed "playground rules"?  I don't think I 
can recall such an incident.  It all goes towards the brutish and 
backwards nature of the WW.  Honestly, I'm surprised there isn't a 
place in Diagon Alley for public floggings.  In the WW, might makes 
right, and I don't think any of the characters (including Dumbledore) 
have questioned such thinking.

> >>Quick_Silver:
> Even the argument that the Trio should act better because they're
> good guys doesn't ring true to me because I don't view them as being
> that much better then Draco. And I don't mean that in a bad way
> considering that Draco in HBP showed himself to be capable of      
> empathy or at least a sense of self-preservation (really IMO either 
> would do...people underestimate self-preservation;)).

Betsy Hp:
I don't see the Trio as being better than Draco either.  They're on 
the right side of this particular war, but that was luck of birth 
rather than any noble instincts on their parts, IMO.  And that the 
Trio aren't going through the same sort of self-defining struggle 
Draco is going through in HBP suggests that Draco will arrive at a 
morally stronger position than at least Ron or Hermione. (Unless 
Harry drags them along on his journey which... hey! He probably will! 
Hope is reborn!! <g>  And I'm deadly serious about that.)

What bothers me about this scene is that (a) it's never revisited.  
Harry (our hero) hasn't yet felt bad about his behavior, and at this 
point I'm not sure that he will.  And (b) so many readers seem to 
think such behavior is okay.  Which, considering we're grownups, 
makes me a bit nervous about the kids out there.  I don't like that 
decency seems to have gone out of style.

But this does lead me to Magpie's post here:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/162504
about Draco's crying in the bathroom scene in HBP (which I have 
snipped the heck out of).

> >>Magpie:
> <snip>
> Apparently Malfoy crying -- actually crying -- really is a shock   
> for Harry who has more than once in the past wanted to cause him as 
> much pain as possible.
> There's something about that moment that makes Malfoy different, and
> then it's immediately choked off--just as Harry's fleeting confusion
> about Snape after the Pensieve is choked off by Snape attacking him.
> <snip>
> Perhaps that's another reason Harry doesn't think about Malfoy at
> all after that. 
> <snip>
> I don't mean anything so literal as just Harry feels bad because he 
> not only hurt Malfoy but Malfoy was sad right before he did it. I   
> think it's more subtle.
> Subtle, btw, in a way I again think parallels Snape.
> <snip>

Betsy Hp:
I've snipped the heck out of this to focus on Harry's similar 
reactions to Draco's crying in HBP, and Snape's worst memory in 
OotP.  I think a part of his reaction is that he's forced to see the 
humanity in two people he's always comfortably seen (and treated) as 
less than human.  (IIRC, doesn't Huck Finn have a similar moment with 
Jim, when he causes Jim to get bit by a snake?)

It's interesting to me, because I do think that ultimately Harry is 
going to heal the rift in Hogwarts and bring the houses (including 
the Slytherins) back together.  So of course he'd got to recognize 
the inherent humanity of the two people who most represent Slytherin 
to him.  And that first moment of recognition is going to be majorly 
shocking to him.

With Snape's worst memory, Harry is shocked because he sees himself 
in young!Snape while at the same time seems completely unable to 
relate to his father.  With Draco, I wonder if the revelation goes 
beyond just recognizing that Draco can feel real, actual pain (the 
tears), but also recognizing that there are things he (Harry) does 
not want to see or cause Draco suffer.

While working through Snape's worst memory Harry thinks that the 
twins doing something similar to Draco would have been alright.  But 
in the bathroom scene he's horrified when Draco is so badly hurt.  
It's like Harry is forced to see beyond a line here to a place where 
his hitting Draco can actually cause Draco damage.  And Harry doesn't 
like it.

So, I'm not sure that book 7 will have Harry thinking back to the 
train scene in GoF and regreting his behavior once Draco was down.  
But perhaps there'll be a moment where he could behave in such a way 
again, and this time he chooses not to?  And um, explains to Ron and 
Hermione why he's hesitating?

Betsy Hp (thinking that just might be enough to save the series for 
her... especially if we get an evil!twin <bg>)