The Train Scene GoF - Playground Rules

[Steve]

No: HPFGUIDX 162533

---  "horridporrid03" <horridporrid03 at ...> wrote:
>
> Betsy Hp:
> A general warning: I make some (guarded) references to
> Ender's Game in this post.  I *think* they're oblique 
> enough to not be spoiler-ish.  But read at your own 
> risk. <g>
> 

bboyminn:

Well, that is something else we both have in common, we
are both Ender fans. I love those books and have read 
both the Ender and the Shadow Series several times. 

Indeed I was thinking about Enders Game as I wrote my
post, while there are some parallels, I wouldn't compare
Ender to Harry.

> ...edited...
> 
> > >>bboyminn:
> > ...
> > <snip>
> > We see from Draco's personality ... that he is not a
> > typical bully fashioned after Dudley. His form of 
> > bullying ... leads to Draco's chronic inability to 
> > learn the lesson that it is far wiser to leave Harry
> > Potter alone. 
> > <snip>
> > While by any standard of social behavior, Harry and 
> > the gangs actions were wrong, we can't really apply 
> > those rules ... ... So, we revert to the only set of
> > rules that are able to affect the situation, and that
> > is 'The Code of the Playground'. ...
> 
> Betsy Hp:
> Oh yeah, definitely some Ender's Game influence at play
> here. <g> But here's the thing, while Ender *was* facing
> dangerous bullies..., Draco is neither... Draco isn't 
> strong enough, and Harry isn't weak enough.
> 

bboyminn:

That's part of the point I was trying to make. Draco isn't 
the standard generic schoolyard bully. This is more of a
grudge match rather than the big kid picking on the skinny
kid. So, I acknowledge the uniqueness of Harry and Draco's
relationship, but unique as it is, it is still resolved by
the rules of the playground, or if you prefer Kid's Rules.

It is because of this unique 'hurt feelings', 'grudge' 
aspect of Draco's actions that I didn't use any direct
'Enders Game' references. I do believe though, that to
some extent, a somewhat more restrained version of Enders
defense philosophy is still valid.

> Betsy Hp:
>
> When Ender goes to the wall he does so because he's got
> no choice. As you say, Ender is in danger of either 
> death or very serious injury .... Harry is in danger of
> being annoyed. Possibly being pissed off. That's all 
> Draco brings to the table in this scene.
> 

bboyminn:

In general, I think this applies to Harry too, but not so
much in this scene. The real heart of my argument was in 
the part you cut. The part that went something like this-

"On the train, there is without a doubt a great deal of
ego, pride, and even machismo involved. But what is
really happening is, this is everyone's way of telling
Draco that they will not be cowed or intimidated...."

Harry and the gang try to ignore Draco, but quite rightly
Harry's nerves are on edge. Harry warns Draco to leave, 
he is trying to avoid a fight. But Draco can't help him
self, he has to shoot off his mouth. Finally, Draco takes 
it too far, and pays a price.

Now, if you try to explain the logic behind this to 
teachers, parents, or the police, it doesn't make logical
social sense. Those actions seem poorly justified under 
the circumstances, but I guarantee every kid on the 
playground was cheering Harry on, because even if adults
don't understand, kids on the playground DO.

This is an action that is not a physical defense against 
physical bullying, it is about pride and respect. If you
whimp out, you lose both. If you stand your ground and 
fight, whether you win or lose, you gain both. Sadly that
is the world, and those are the rules, kids live by. It
really is a jungle out there on the playground.

> Betsy Hp:
>
> So this idea that Harry needs to react to Draco as a 
> solider going into a war is, ...
> 

bboyminn:

Again, it's not about a 'soldier going to war', it is 
about a kid going out to the playground. That is a much
softer 'war' but when you are the kid who is being 
chronically picked on, it still feels like war.

That is why people identify with Harry and the gang in 
this scene. It is not that they condone it as adults, its
that they remember their own playground wars, and 
consciously or unconsciously, remember the rules those
wars are played by. 

> Betsy Hp:
>
> I'll also add that Ender would never, *never* step on 
> the body of a downed enemy.  There's no message in that.
> ...

bboyminn:

While you are absolutely right about Ender, he is far too
compassionate kick a man when he is down unless it serves
a clear strategic purpose. Remember, kicking a man when he
is down, is exactly what Ender did on the play ground, but
again, he did it with a clear strategic purpose. 

When it comes to the Twins and Harry & Co, actually there
is a message in that; a playground message. And the 
message is not 'we assult you' or 'we hurt you', it is 
about pride and respect. So, when the Twins step on Draco,
they are simply disrespecting him because they believe he
has more than earned this show of disrespect. 

Draco  fancies himself this wealthy priviledge boy that 
Harry should have chosen over the ragamuffin Weasleys. He
fancies himself the 'Crown Prince of the School'. When he
walks in the room, all eyes SHOULD turn toward him. Harry
& Co, and the Twins are telling Draco, we don't care how 
much wealth, power, or status you think you have, you've 
revealed your true self to us as the scum that you are, 
and we won't /fake/ respect for someone who is so 
thoroughly despicable.

Draco is filled with a sense of superiority, and is flush
with Voldemort's victory, and the Twins are saying, we 
don't care how rich and powerful you are, you are just
trashed to be swept out the door to us.

So, I agree, by adult standards this is a terrible thing
for the twins to do. It is completely understandable that
adults don't understand it, but like I said, kids 
understand it perfectly.

Just one man's opinion.

Steve/bboyminn