ESE, DDM, OFH, or Grey? (WAS: DDM!Snape the definition)

[dumbledore11214]

No: HPFGUIDX 162562

> Betsy Hp:
<SNIP>
>> If OFH!Snape is okay with killing Dumbledore, he doesn't need a UV 
to 
> make himself do it.   But why would an OFH!Snape make a vow that 
> means he is no longer out for himself?

Alla:

Because being out for himself is not limited to his survival maybe? 
But keep reading.
 
> > >>Alla:
> > <snip>
> > OFH!Snape is not the man who does not care about anybody. I do 
not 
> > think such characters exist, unless they are meant to 
be           
> > completely cartoonish.
> > <snip>
> 
> Betsy Hp:
> By definition, he actually kind of has to be.  If you're arguing 
that 
> Snape's main motivation is to protect himself, you can't turn 
around 
> and say, actually, he'll lay his life on the line for so and so.  
In 
> that case Snape is no longer putting himself first.

Alla:

Eh, no that is not actually what I am arguing. I am arguing that "out 
for himself" Snape means ( in my view) that Snape has goals in this 
war, which he is going to pursue regardless of what Dumbledore or 
Voldemort want from him. And protecting himself while certainly can 
be one of those goals and may help him achieve ultimate goal is not 
necessarily the main one.

Say he indeed loves Narcissa and wants her more than anything else 
and will indeed do anything for her. As long as serving DD or 
Voldemort or both of them does not stop him from achieving that goal, 
zis fine for Snape, but when he has to choose, he chooses to finish 
off Dumbledore as long as Cissy dear is happy and her son is safe.

I am not a big fan of that one, I think Lily will tie Harry in more 
neatly, but this is just one of the examples IMO which goals Out for 
himself Snape can pursue IMO. I mean since when Out for himself Snape 
became out for himself to survive Snape? It is I guess one of the OFH!
Snape subspecies, but IMO not the only one. :)

Betsy: 
> I mean, sure he can *care* about someone else, to a certain 
extent.  
> But he can't put their lives in front of his own, not and remain 
> primarily motivated by his own survival.

Alla:

See above. I truly do not see why not as long as Out for himself 
Snape wants something else not just his own survival.

 
> > >>Alla:
> > As long as he is not for Dumbledore or for Voldemort, he can 
be    
> > friend, protector, lover of any number of people (I don't think 
the 
> > number is that great but theoretically, why not?)
> 
> Betsy Hp:
> Oh sure, he can be.  But that means he's not OFH.  It's an entirely 
> different Snape you've created.  Ambiguously Motivated!Snape, I 
> guess, or Out For Unknown Character!Snape (LiD!Snape can fit into 
> this particular Snape, if that matters).  He's on *someone's* side, 
> just not Dumbledore's or Voldemort's and not his own.  Because he's 
> willing to risk his life for someone who is not himself.  So he's 
no 
> longer out for *himself*. 

Alla:

Well, Okay whatever you want to call him, I don't mind. As long as 
the substance is clear. That Snape can indeed put his life on the 
line for somebody else, but he will not hesitate to kill his mentor 
to help out somebody else. That does not make Snape a good guy in my 
view.

 
> Betsy Hp (kind of hoping AM!Snape or OFUC!Snape doesn't catch on 
> because the abbrevations are starting to get a little bit out of 
hand 
> and is one them looking a tiny bit naughty? <g>)
>

Alla:

LOLOL. Put those on Innish Alley too.