[HPforGrownups] Re: ESE, DDM, OFH, or Grey? (WAS: DDM!Snape the definition)

[Magpie]

No: HPFGUIDX 162569

> Magpie:
>> One question for that, then, is why is he, more than any other
> character,
>> risking his life for it?  I mean, Snape's the character who's the
> most in
>> the thick of this battle, and a lot of his characterization seems
> to turn on
>> that and his ties to both sides.
>><SNIP>
>
> Alla:
>
> I really, really disagree that Snape is shown as the character who is
> risking his life for the Order more than anybody else. We have
> Potters, who thrice defied Voldemort, we have Longbottoms, who were
> also heroic aurors, we have real Alastor Moody. We have Lupin, unless
> you dig ESE!Lupin of course, I can give you at least several more
> names, who fircely fight a good fight and I disagree that all of them
> are risking their lifes any less than Severus Snape. I mean he sure
> is shown to risk his life as a spy, but I would say that it is not
> exactly clear that he is doing it for the order.

Magpie:
But I would still say that within canon-spanning the timeframe of the 
story-Snape is the character most of all associated with playing all these 
dangerous games as a spy and working with Dumbledore etc. HBP did add Lupin 
to the game, but even there he's only for a year been promoted to the same 
job Snape already has, and Snape is Voldemort's right hand man--he's closer 
to the heart of the villain than Lupin.

I'm not claiming that Snape is the biggest hero or anything like that. Just 
that a big part of his characterization in canon has been his part in the 
fight against Voldemort.  Somebody like Moody's obviously committed, but 
he's a minor character who's just there as an Order member. Snape's the 
central character who keeps getting bound into all things Voldemort-y.

Alla:

I think he is planning to stick with whatever side advances his goals more 
and if none - ditch them both, therefore I don't see UV as being in conflict 
with that.

Magpie:
Isn't it?  It puts his life in danger--unless dying doesn't stand in the way 
of advancing his goals. It also locks him into a certain act--what if 
circumstances changed so that fulfilling the Vow would make one side reject 
him? It seems like "stick with whichever side advances your goals or ditch 
them both" gets back to that original problem that this guy needs to have 
some wiggle room to move between sides or ditch.

 Alla:
>
> Well, see you brought the explaining away the murder part, not me, so
> I may as well say it.

Magpie:
Absolutely! It's the elephant in DDM's Snape.:-)

Alla:
When I first read HBP and Snape killing
> Dumbledore, I thought to myself - no, there is absolutely no way that
> in the book where author basically beats us over the head with the
> baseball bat that murder rips your soul apart, there is absolutely no
> way that Snape killing Dumbledore can be explained as a **good**
> deed, **noble** deed, the deed of the character who is loyal to
> Dumbledore. I should have known better. :)
>
> Oh, and of course I know all the arguments as to why it can be indeed
> DD!M Snape, know them by heart and can argue them myself, just as I
> am sure everybody who had been here can argue my position. That is
> not my point.
>
> My point is that yes, while respecting everybody's right to argue
> anything they want, I remain pretty convinced that this is indeed
> explaining away the murder, red herrings or not. And yes, shifting
> the focus on Dumbledore asking Snape to do it in my view is blaming
> the victim, instead of the murderer.

Magpie:
I can see what you mean. Which is why I should probably make clear that for 
me, an important aspect to the whole DDM Snape thing is that I don't have a 
defense for the murder. I think the next book will explain the murder in 
some way that does fit it in with Snape being DDM, but it's a total unknown. 
I've no idea how JKR can do it--which, if she is planning to do that, is 
good for her. It's just I think we could get something that explains what 
Snape did in some way that makes him still DDM (and fits Dumbledore too). 
Just as presumably if I believed ESE!Snape I'd assume that the next book 
would explain things like why Snape brought the Order to the MoM.

Alla:
> I mean, going back to bathroom scene for a second, Harry is expected
> to feel bad for almost killing Draco while defending himself, but
> Snape's **murder** is a totally different animal and here it does not
> matter that murder is a big deal? Just saying it in general.

Magpie:
Oh no--the murder of Dumbledore would be a huge deal. One that Snape might 
not get over at all!

Alla:
> This is of course Severely Siguine Snape. Had been a while since I
> reread her amasing essay ( highly recommended, highly), but the gist
> that I can remember is that her Snape kills Dumbledore because he
> feels he has no choice on the Tower, while is not wavering in his
> loyalty to white hats. I am not sure if in her version Dumbledore is
> indeed dying from poison, but it can be very fitting. The difference
> that I can see between mainstream DD!M Snape and hers is that Snape
> and only Snape made a decision to kill Dumbledore, even if with the
> best possible reasons in mind . Snape and only Snape made a mistake
> of taking UV and that eventually lead him to the Tower. He made a
> choice, he pays consequences. If that Snape is shown to be remorseful
> in book 7, I can even be happy with it.

Magpie:
I personally don't see DDM as being about Dumbledore actually ordering Snape 
to kill him either--I can't see him ordering Snape to kill anyone that way. 
I don't think what happened on the Tower was the plan, but a disaster. One 
that Dumbledore had perhaps prepared for in some way, which is why he can 
say "Severus, please" and know that Snape knows what he's talking about.  I 
don't think it was a cold-blooded plan plotted out. Snape knows what he has 
to do when he comes to the Tower, but that's not what was supposed to 
happen. I can't see Dumbledore's plan ever being, "Okay, then you kill 
me..."  It seems like Dumbledore's supposed to be dying all year. Dumbledore 
wouldn't, imo, make a plan that included murder or suicide. They both seem 
pretty anti-Dumbledoreness as I see it so far.

Nikkalmati:

I am much more with Julie and Debbie here and I believe in DDM!Snape.   I 
have said before, and I stick with it, that SS did not have a clue what 
Draco's task was before he took the vow.  (No one else seems willing to 
jump on the bandwagon, however).  SS wanted and needed to know that 
information and promising to protect Draco was a small price to pay.

Magpie:
If he needed that information why didn't he just let Narcissa tell it to him 
like she was going to before he himself jumped in and said, "Don't tell me?"

Nikki:
There is a question as to when DD and SS figured out exactly what SS 
promised to do.  It must have become clear by the time Katie Bell was 
cursed.

Magpie:
So the vow really was completely useless. Why did Snape take it if he still 
had to figure out what Draco's task was by just hanging around school and 
waiting to see what Draco did?  If he'd only not taken the vow he would have 
gotten his information without putting his and Dumbledore's life in danger.

Neri:
I agree that the "fight" in the forest needs to be explained further in Book 
7. What was the thing that Snape didn't want to do anymore? Here is one 
possible LID!Snape explanation, which unfortunately will be slightly vague 
because the exact terms of the Life Debt are highly classified material at 
the moment.

Magpie:
I don't know if this is the classified part, but I just don't get what the 
Life Debt could possibly do that makes Snape need to fulfill it so badly. 
You say that it's very bad for Snape to be in LV's service and confidence 
when he attacks Harry because that will make him accountable for his debt 
when Harry is killed, as he was when he told LV the prophecy and so became 
accountable.

But so then what's to fear?  Snape's Life Debt isn't actually with Harry. It 
was with James. James who died as a result of Snape's telling Voldemort the 
prophecy. Whom Snape was unable to save despite trying to save him. And yet 
sixteen years later Snape's fine. Nothing bad happened to him as a result of 
James dying. So why is it so important for him to avoid being in LV's 
confidence when he goes after Harry?

-m