[HPforGrownups] Re: ESE, DDM, OFH, or Grey? (WAS: DDM!Snape the definition)

[elfundeb]

No: HPFGUIDX 162570

Sydney:
LOL-- mulled Snape, how Christmassy!

Debbie:
A much better analogy. I agree
grey!Snape would be an awesome character but maybe I just feel he'd
need a book of his own... maybe the supposed prequel could be Young
Snape, who would be in exactly the mind-making-up position you would
love (I'd LOVE to do a comic book on that)!

Debbie:
You know, I was debating between spiced Snape and spiked Snape, but (keeping
with the drinks for a moment) I now believe we could call him, at this
moment anyway, Shaken, Not Stirred.

For someone who joined, then repudiated the DEs by the time he could drink
legally in the U.S., DDM!Snape has been steadfast in his loyalty for an
awful long time.  It just seems to me that all that volatility and anger
should be welling up right about now.  The revulsion and hatred revealed in
his face on the Tower speaks volumes.

Jen:
I see young Snape as similar to Draco in the way he was drawn
into the world of Voldemort though I don't think he believed like
Draco believes, likely he was disillusioned with the alternatives
more than anything else! But Snape was surrounded by the DE culture
in Slytherin house and that along with a possible growing interest in
dark arts could be contributing factors.

Debbie:
This may be where Jen and I diverge a bit (though I'm not certain).  My
Young Grey!Snape was disillusioned at the time about one thing:
Dumbledore.  And in particular, Dumbledore's excessive affinity for that
arrogant bully James Potter.

Sydney:
If anyone could come up with an
OFH! or Grey! storyline that would explain the twitch, the argument,
and most, most, most importantly Dumbledore's pleading with Snape the
second he comes on the scene, I'd be happy to entertain it. DDM!Snape
takes those three sole instances of hesitation and relates them
seamelessly to one thing, the killing of Dumbledore.

Debbie:
The Grey!Snape explanation for the twitch is essentially the same as
DDM!Snape's.  He has been caught, as if in a vise, in a game he thought he
could win.  He is hoping to escape from the vise, but he really has no
choice but to go ahead with the UV; if he doesn't, the game is over today.
The argument is, plain and simple, Snape wavering, as in "take this cup away
from me" only it's not Jesus' cup he's being asked to swallow, it's Judas'.
In fact, he goes ahead with the plan.  He has no reason not to; either way,
it is the end of the road for him and the rest of the Order.  He did remain
loyal to Dumbledore as long as he lived, but now he's rethinking his
options.

Julie:
I need some clarifications on the difference between
DDM!Snape and Grey!Snape. First, is it the contention of
Grey!Snapers that Snape was not doing Dumbledore's bidding
on the Tower? Rather than Dumbledore pleading with Snape
to fulfill his Unbreakable Vow for a higher purpose (to
save Draco and Harry, and himself as he could be of more
value to the effort to defeat Voldemort), Dumbledore was
pleading with Snape *not* to kill him, even if in an
indirect way (Don't choose this path, don't tear your
soul, etc)?

Or *was* Snape doing Dumbledore's bidding with a great
deal of resentment (as perhaps we observe in Snape's
look of hatred and revulsion as he performs the AK),
and it's the contention of Grey!Snapers that this
resentment will cause Snape to waver in his loyalty
during the next book?

Debbie:
I think what I've already written above establishes that Grey!Snape is more
like your second scenario than the first.  Snape does like recognition for
the risks he takes, but he's been forced into an endgame that will leave him
high and dry, with his mentor dead at his own hand, and himself with choices
to make.

Sarah:
But therein lies the beauty of OFH/Life Debt. (Not Grey.) If Snape
does all the stuff that he does because of a relatively simply
understood plot device, there is hope that Harry could plausibly find
it out without someone taking three chapters to describe the decades
of history of Snape's innermost thoughts.

Debbie:
One person's beauty is another's deep disappointment.  At bottom, I think we
are all here because JKR is a character-driven writer.  As Sydney said, she
has the ability to make characters (Snape, at least) act consistently with a
single vision of his character throughout the series.  We care about his
backstory because it provides clues as to what makes him tick.  That's why I
want to see his loyalty to Dumbledore put to the test, for his anger to rise
to the surface and call into question everything he's done for the last 15
years.  I want to see the effect of circumstances on his character.  If it
turned out that everything he did was the result of a plot device (which is
how I read LID!Snape), I would feel sorely cheated of his character.  I
don't see the life debt as the equivalent of a magical contract.  The fact
that Snape feels burdened by a life debt is a testament to his character,
not the other way around.

I think we may get an early scene in book 7 from the POV of the omniscient
narrator that gives us a glimpse into Snape's mindset.  Or maybe I should
say that I want such a scene.

Neri:
And so, when Draco finally made his move, Snape was indeed caught in
the trap he had feared. He was left no choice but to kill Dumbledore
in order to save his own life from the UV, and now he is stuck on
Voldemort's side, he's part to all the plans to kill Harry (because
he's Voldemort favorite DE) and so he'd either be fully accountable
when Harry is killed, or he'd have to save Harry and bear Voldemort's
wrath. Small wonder he was so furious at Dumbledore on the tower, eh?

Debbie:
Well, yes!  And, in the Grey! scenario, why he's out there in the forest
with some decisions to make.  Does he really want to be stuck on Voldemort's
side?  (And with Draco-Who-Couldn't-Do-The-Deed in tow?)  If he's really
DDM! he shouldn't go back to Voldemort at all.  Voldemort will punish, if
not kill, Draco, and, much worse, hanging around Voldemort might allow
Voldemort to use Snape's anger at what Dumbledore to win him over.  Better
for Snape if he and Draco hid in the forest somewhere, but I don't think
this will happen.  Hence, Grey!Snape.

But in the end, I believe Grey!Snape will come back to the fold.  He will
repay Dumbledore's trust in him (DDM!), repay the Life-Debt (LID!), seize
some glory for himself (OFH!) yet never truly be forgiven for Dumbledore's
murder (ESE!).

Debbie
toasting yummy DDM! s'mores over the campfire with Sydney, Carol and the
gang but so far refusing to eat them


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