ESE, DDM, OFH, or Grey? (WAS: DDM!Snape the definition)

[Neri]

No: HPFGUIDX 162564

> Sydney:
> 
> Is there a OFH!Snape explanation for the fight in the forest?  Is
> Snape actually arguing with Dumbledore about what side he's on? 
> Wouldn't he be hiding this?  And why is Dumbledore still saying he
> trusts him completely in that case?  If anyone could come up with an
> OFH! or Grey! storyline that would explain the twitch, the argument,
> and most, most, most importantly Dumbledore's pleading with Snape the
> second he comes on the scene, I'd be happy to entertain it.  DDM!Snape
> takes those three sole instances of hesitation and relates them
> seamelessly to one thing, the killing of Dumbledore. Snape is willing
> to go all the way to defeat Voldemort but balks at killing Dumbledore
> as he is, after all, Dumbledore's Man. Dumbledore is perfectly aware
> of this and they had a frank argument about it;  and it's still up in
> the air how far Snape is willing to go when he gets to the top of the
> tower.  

Neri:
I agree that the "fight" in the forest needs to be explained further
in Book 7. What was the thing that Snape didn't want to do anymore?
Here is one possible LID!Snape explanation, which unfortunately will
be slightly vague because the exact terms of the Life Debt are highly
classified material at the moment. I think that, by asking Snape to
assume again his old double-agent role in VW2, Dumbledore in fact had
Snape in a trap: As long as Snape knows about Voldemort's plans to
kill Harry, the Life Debt terms consider him a part to these plans,
and therefore fully accountable for anything that happens to Harry as
a result. In fact, Dumbledore was deliberately recreating the
situation in the end of VW1, when Snape knew about Voldemort's plans
to kill the Potters and therefore had to prevent them any way he could
or be held accountable by the Life Debt. 

Snape agreed to return to his double-agent role, but for his own
reasons. He wanted to establish again his good relations with
Voldemort, because he hoped to somehow clear his Debt without
Voldemort ever finding out about it, and then he'd be free to join
whichever side has the best chance to win the war. To Dumbledore Snape
was of course pretending that he's doing it because it's the right
thing to do. Dumbledore perhaps bought it and perhaps didn't, or most
probably he always hoped that Snape, like Harry, would come to realize
that the only way to be free of his terrible destiny is to embrace it,
to do it for the right reasons. But in any case, because of the Life
Debt Dumbledore could completely trust Snape to save Harry, even (or
especially) if Snape betrays Dumbledore and the Order.

So in HBP, when Snape made the UV, he thought he was buying time for
himself to continue the double-agent game and find an opportunity to
clear the Debt. He was certain that he could easily control and
manipulate Draco, so he'd ensure that Draco never makes a real
attempt, and so never succeeds in killing Dumbledore while never
actually failing. But to Snape's surprise Draco turned out to be
uncontrollable, and Snape found himself in a trap of his own making
(the proper end for a spinner): if Draco makes an irrevocable move,
Snape would either die, or have to kill Dumbledore, which means
trapping himself on Voldemort's side with the Debt still active. Just
before Christmas, after his failed attempt to discipline Draco, Snape
realized that he has taken a bigger bite than he could swallow. 

So, in the forest, Snape hoped to convince Dumbledore to free him from
his obligation to continue the double agent role. Presumably he then
hoped to tell Voldemort that Dumbledore now suspects him and he has no
choice but to lie low for a while, or something of that sort. Not
knowing Voldemort's plans anymore would make Snape unaccountable if
and when Voldemort kills Harry. No Harry – no Debt, and then Snape is
free to assist Draco in killing Dumbledore, and end up in Voldemort's
camp with the friggin Debt finally cleared.

But Dumbledore of course wouldn't hear about freeing Snape from his
obligation, and Snape couldn't disobey Dumbledore, because if
Dumbledore's done with him, Snape is again stuck on Voldemort's side
with the friggin Debt. A fiendish dilemma only JKR and Dumbledore can
construct.

And so, when Draco finally made his move, Snape was indeed caught in
the trap he had feared. He was left no choice but to kill Dumbledore
in order to save his own life from the UV, and now he is stuck on
Voldemort's side, he's part to all the plans to kill Harry (because
he's Voldemort favorite DE) and so he'd either be fully accountable
when Harry is killed, or he'd have to save Harry and bear Voldemort's
wrath. Small wonder he was so furious at Dumbledore on the tower, eh?
 
This was a tentative explanation of LID!Snape to the "fight" in the
forest. Now, according to the DDM explanation the fight refers to the
hypothetical Plan Dumbledore had made for Snape to kill him. So I have
to imagine this conversation really went something like this:


SS <sounds slightly overworked>: You know, Headmaster, you're taking
too much for granted here. I mean, this whole plan of me killing you.
You know how I still suffer remorse over causing the death of the
woman I loved, and now you want to add the burden of killing you to my
frayed soul? Well maybe I just don't want to do it anymore. I had it.
I'll just die myself instead.

AD <angrily>: No, no, no, Severus. We had it all planned and there's
no chickening out now. You agreed to kill me and this is all there is
to it! Now, how is the investigation in the Slytherin House going? 


Well, personally I don't buy Dumbledore demanding from anybody to kill
him (unless he's under the effect of a very evil potion, that is),
especially not from someone who already suffers such remorse. But what
I find completely ludicrous in the above conversation is the choice of
words: Snape saying that "Dumbledore takes too much for granted" and
Dumbledore saying "you agreed to do it and this is all there is to it"
before moving to the next item on his list. Is this *all* there is to
it??? 


Neri