ESE, DDM, OFH, or Grey? (WAS: DDM!Snape the definition)

[Jen Reese]

No: HPFGUIDX 162573

Julie:
> I need some clarifications on the difference between DDM!Snape and
> Grey!Snape. 

Jen: Grey was originally a variation on DDM and started out as a 
character study because one component of DDM is difficult for me to 
believe: Snape switched sides, pledged loyalty to Dumbledore and 
dutifully moved forward without ever allowing his DE days or reasons 
for joining Voldemort to affect him again.  He's still affected by 
the Marauders, he still carries around painful childhood memories, he 
still favors Slytherin house--how did he cleanly cut out just one 
very significant part of his past?  Just because we don't know why he 
joined up doesn't mean it's not part of him anymore and doesn't 
affect him as keenly as other past events.  I'm not saying Snape 
contemplates a return to Voldemort or is playing both sides, just 
proposing Snape's past is wreaking havoc with both Dumbledore's 
carefully laid plans and their relationship in HBP.

> Sydney:  
> DDM!Snape takes those three sole instances of hesitation and 
> relates them seamelessly to one thing, the killing of Dumbledore. 
> Snape is willing to go all the way to defeat Voldemort but balks at 
> killing Dumbledore as he is, after all, Dumbledore's Man. 

Jen: I'm not convinced the plan was to kill Dumbledore from the 
moment the UV was taken.  Dumbledore is focused on finding Horcruxes 
and staying out of the castle for most of the year, a plan that both 
furthers the goal of defeating Voldemort and keeps him away from 
Draco.  He's contingency planning to keep everyone alive as long as 
possible and that means the burden falls on Snape to stop Draco.  I 
believe they are arguing over what Snape feels like is a lousy plan 
that isn't working. I'm not saying this negates DDM, just that 
Dumbledore is ordering and Snape appears to be trying to refuse.

Sydney:
> I actually don't think Snape was wavering even then, because, as 
> I've said, I don't think 'wavering' could apply to Snape as a 
> person.  He got hit with the third clause of the Vow.  He discusses 
> it with Dumbledore.  They agree Snape will go ahead and kill him
> (Horcrux!Dumbledore, maybe?).  Snape then at some point (I'll have
> to reread the book and see if I can find a catalyst), decides he 
> will absolutely not do it, consistent with the argument in the
> forest...

Jen: Here's one thing that doesn't work for me with DDM.  Snape was 
not hit with the third clause of the Vow.  He *chose* to take the Vow 
and from what we know so far in canon, the UV was not ordered by 
either Dumbledore or Voldemort since Snape was surprised to see 
Narcissa.  In fact, from the information prior to the Vow Snape is 
going *against* Voldemort to even be talking to Bella and Narcissa.  
People have argued Bella and Narcissa will kill him but that's not 
said or implied anywhere in the conversation.  If Snape is indeed in 
tight with LV at the moment and Bella and Narcissa are on the outs 
due to the DOM (and neither denies this), that seems crazy to attempt 
to kill Snape and then answer to Voldemort.  All agree Voldemort 
expects Snape to help kill Dumbledore from the inside.

For those reasons and the fact that Peter may have been eavesdropping 
again, why didn't Snape show them the door?  Does he love Draco so 
much he's willing to die for him before helping defeat Voldemort and 
seeing Lily's death avenged (or someone else's)?  So much he's 
willing to kill the one man who can help the Chosen One face his 
destiny and rid the world of Voldemort?  Snape's desire to help 
defeat Voldemort sounds a little lukewarm there and if Snape is 
willing to die for Draco I'm afraid Noble Snape is not in the books:  
*Dumbledore* is willing to die for Draco and the greater good but so 
far Snape has not been presented as having these same impulses. 

If it's not love of Draco, maybe Narcissa is the reason he can't 
refuse and that could be an interesting conflict of interest if he 
placed Narcissa before Dumbledore. 

Sydney: 
> I think breaking the Vow was Snape's firm decision until he was
> faced with the very particular set of circumstances so fiendishly
> arranged by the DADA Curse/JKR:  the magic barrier, the frozen
> Harry, the DEs,the Poison, the Vow.  If JKR wanted to give Grey!
> Snape a choice on the tower, I don't think she would have arranged 
> that one-- one where Draco's and Harry's lives are in the balance
> as well.  That looks a heck of a lot more like a cruel choice for
> DDM!Snape-- heroic death but nothing accomplished, vs. being once
> again the villain of the piece but one step closer to the ultimate
> goal of defeating Voldemort.

Jen: It is cruel, JKR is cruel to her characters!  It's Snape's 
version of Harry's 'walking into the arena or being dragged there' 
when Snape is on the tower.  In your version Snape is still making a 
choice if he entered the tower firmly convinced he would break the 
Vow and then saw the scene and changed his mind.  He also had the 
choice to die a heroic death and accomplish nothing just like James 
did or the Order members in the first War who were being picked off 
one by one.  I'm not saying that was a great choice, just one he did 
have open to him.

This scene is often compared to the scene with Harry feeding potion 
and I do like the symmetry there. One difference is that Dumbledore 
doesn't order Snape to do anything or remind him in a firm voice what 
he agreed to do with a "Severus...your word."  No.  He pleads, begs, 
entreats, he doesn't sound like a man sure what Snape will do in this 
*particular situation* no matter how much he trusts Snape is on his 
side and not Voldemort's.

> Sydney:   
> But where does the beautiful sobbing lady intersect with the guy
> travelling light and keeping himself out of trouble?  Wouldn't he
> be, like, "I stick my neck out for no one, lady'?  I just don't
> see 'keeping himself out of trouble' Snape *anywhere*. 

Jen:  I didn't say Snape keeps himself out of trouble or doesn't 
stick his nose into things because I agree with you he's everywhere 
at Hogwarts.  But when it comes to Order duties he is exempt and when 
it comes to DE duties he doesn't have to participate (heck he's even 
forgiven for not showing up at the graveyard).  He does what he has 
to do and gets out again, he's not interested in comrades or 
connections or making commitments to people with the exception of his 
return to Dumbledore and agreeing to go back to Voldemort (which once 
again was a choice like being dragged to the arena or walking in).  
Narcissa's arrival puts a definite crimp in his style of working 
alone and answering to as few people as possible and to top it off 
she asks for a *commitment*. I'm assuming the DADA curse is at work 
here and just as Lupin's lycantropy (sp.?)catches up with him, or 
Umbridge's lust for power or Crouch-Moody's insane follower of 
Voldemort trip, Snape's 'worst' catching up with him is his old 
life.  

> Sydney:
> If she was painting a wavering character he would waver for
> England.  He'd waver like Hagrid drinks and bursts into tears.  He
> wouldn't be enimagic proactive and decisive ("Of course I'll take
> the Unbreakable Vow"-- he pauses for what, two seconds?), but
> somehow wavering in some invisible fashion at the same time.

Jen: I can't see this from Snape or JKR at all!  She's the one who 
showed Dumbledore's enormous regret for leaving Harry with the 
Dursleys by saying the light went out in his eyes.  Or showing his 
pain for Harry with one tear after telling him about the Prophecy. 
Especially if Snape is practicing Occlumency, the twitch is an 
indication of hesitation as would be the blank face when Narcissa 
asks for the Unbreakable Vow. Even Bella recognizes these two things 
as hesitation.  Before Voldemort returns Snape loses control plenty, 
mainly over Harry and the Marauders, but since then the only incident 
I recall is when he threw Harry out of his office (not following 
Dumbledore's orders like a good soldier).  So maybe I was wrong to 
say Snape is enraged about his carefully controlled world falling 
apart, maybe it's just plain fear like the kind Harry thought he saw 
when Snape reflexively grabbed his arm or possibly his pale face when 
Dumbledore asked him to return to Voldemort.  

Jen before:
> His loyalty to Dumbledore wasn't really tested until the point
> Voldemort returns and by that point Snape is quite confident about
> his abilities as we see during the Occlumency lessons.  

> Sydney:  
> But... but... are we just ditching the whole "great personal risk"
> thing when Voldemort was at the height of his powers and everyone
> thought he would win and Snape's amazing remorse and trust of
> Dumbledore built on rock-like foundations?  I mean, of course we can
> just say, 'for the sake of Grey!Snape we're going to sacrifice this
> because it doesn't fit', but personally I like all the canon I get
> on my side.

Jen:  Hey, I object here!  Just because I didn't think something 
through all the way back to the beginning doesn't mean I'm trying to 
twist to make a theory work.  There's nothing wrong with trying to 
build a theory even if it means getting parts knocked down and having 
to rethink.  In my point above I was musing about the time period 
after Voldemort turned to vapor and wasn't thinking about Snape's 
actual turn.  I agree with about 'great personal risk' and 
Dumbledore's implicit trust of Snape because they're in the book, but 
reserve judgement on Snape's amazing remorse and trust of Dumbledore 
and the rock-like foundation part until I hear it from Snape's mouth 
(unless of course I'm forgetting some canon again and will be 
reminded. <g>)

Jen R.