ESE, DDM, OFH, or Grey? (WAS: DDM!Snape the definition)

[Sydney]

No: HPFGUIDX 162575

> Jen: Grey was originally a variation on DDM and started out as a 
> character study because one component of DDM is difficult for me to 
> believe: Snape switched sides, pledged loyalty to Dumbledore and 
> dutifully moved forward without ever allowing his DE days or reasons 
> for joining Voldemort to affect him again.


Sydney:

Oh, yeah!  And I think this is what grates on people who imagine
DDM!Snape as cuddly guy who 'became good' or something.  But I think
the exact same things that drove Snape to join the DE's are still
driving him, and they're not happy fluffy things:  they're rage,
shame, hatred, self-destruction, and a thirst for vengeance.  It's
just pointed the other way.  I guess personally I see Snape as an
extremist, and like a lot of extremists it's not so much the cause in
the abstract that's attractive as the opportunity to lose himself in
it and keep him from facing up to his own issues.  And like a lot of
extremists he flips quantumly from one extreme end of the spectrum to
the other without even passing through the space between.

I think this is going to play out in Book VII in terms of Harry's
final confrontation with Voldemort and the tactics that he uses and
the whole "Power of Love" thing.  Because at present Harry's drive
against Voldemort is much closer to Snape's than to Dumbledore's. 
It's all about anger and revenge.  That's where the whole Draco thing
gets so interesting because you can see Dumbledore's 'love' method of
fighting in action-- he empathises with Draco and draws him in, which
is exactly what I think he did with Snape.  On the symbolic level
insofar as Rowlings using the whole Jungian Shadow thing, it's about
integrating the dark side rather than rejecting it.

Not that I'm picturing of course a denoument where Harry's Voldemort's
therapist or something!  The Voldemort plots always seem to float off
into dream-symbolism territory and I guess, I dunno, Harry will open
the Room of Love and Voldemort's head will explode or something like
with the Arc of the Covenant.  

Jen:

> I'm not saying Snape 
> contemplates a return to Voldemort or is playing both sides, just 
> proposing Snape's past is wreaking havoc with both Dumbledore's 
> carefully laid plans and their relationship in HBP.

Sydney:

I'd say story-wise that's just too complicated and off-screen, and too
much about Snape in way that has nothing to do with Harry.  Not that
it's not possible, just that, I can't see the bit where the crucial
evidence of what was going on in HBP comes out and Harry's like,
*gasp!* and it's got a nice clear bang.

> Jen: I'm not convinced the plan was to kill Dumbledore from the 
> moment the UV was taken. 


Sydney:

I'm definitely not married to any specific kill-Dumbledore theory,
although I love Horcrux!Dumbledore, becuase it's pretty simple and
sets up cool stuff for Harry in the next book.  I mean, if every time
a Horcrux is destroyed a mini-Voldemort soul-bit has to be fought or
tries to possess someone like the Diary did Ginny, that would be sooo
cool.  But it's just a theory.  There's no end of permutations to what
could have happened.  But they all have to factor in DDM!Snape <g>. 


> 
> Jen: Here's one thing that doesn't work for me with DDM.  Snape was 
> not hit with the third clause of the Vow.  He *chose* to take the Vow 
> and from what we know so far in canon, the UV was not ordered by 
> either Dumbledore or Voldemort since Snape was surprised to see 
> Narcissa. 


Sydney:

Ditto the Vow-- I really don't know quite what was up with it
(although it could be argued that magically speaking, he couldn't opt
out half-way through and was stuck with the last part).  Snape
definitely didn't have to take the Vow.  I have a lot of vague
theories about that... my most crazy one, if you'd like to hear it, is
that he actually took the vow to force the DADA job issue.  I know, I
know, it sounds mental, but the DADA job is the one thing Snape really
seems to be after for some mysterious reason, and the Vow definitely
would have forced Dumbledore's hand.  And the next thing we see is
Dumbledore going off to hire himself a Potions guy.  

Then there's Suicidal!Snape... (cuddles suicidal!Snape)... but it's
more of a cheap fling than a theory I'm totally married to!    

Jen:
> If it's not love of Draco, maybe Narcissa is the reason he can't 
> refuse and that could be an interesting conflict of interest if he 
> placed Narcissa before Dumbledore. 

Sydney:

The Narcissa angle is just too left-field for me.  It just doesn't
seem to tie thematically in with anything we've seen with Snape or the
story in general, and I can't see an angle for Harry at all.  It would
be a better storyline for a peripheral character, but Snape seems so
central to the Big Themes it just feels weird to me. 


Jen:

> This scene is often compared to the scene with Harry feeding potion 
> and I do like the symmetry there. One difference is that Dumbledore 
> doesn't order Snape to do anything or remind him in a firm voice what 
> he agreed to do with a "Severus...your word."  No.  He pleads, begs, 
> entreats, he doesn't sound like a man sure what Snape will do in this 
> *particular situation* no matter how much he trusts Snape is on his 
> side and not Voldemort's.

Sydney:

In your theory, is Dumbledore begging for Snape to kill him, or not to
kill him?  Because the one scenario where Dumbledore could totally
trust Snape completely as being on his side but still have to plead,
IMO, is the "do this awful thing for me" scenario.  Harry wasn't sure
he was feeding Dumbledore poison, plus he didn't have a chance to
really think about the situation; whereas whatever is going on between
Snape and Dumbledore here, it's something they've hashed over before.  


> Jen:  I didn't say Snape keeps himself out of trouble or doesn't 
> stick his nose into things because I agree with you he's everywhere 
> at Hogwarts.  But when it comes to Order duties he is exempt and when 
> it comes to DE duties he doesn't have to participate 

Sydney:

But I don't think this is how JKR characterises people.  She gives
them a few very strong character traits and lets them run.  And he's
not exempt when it comes to the Order at least-- Sirius, as I said,
talks of Snape being "out there risking his life", and he'd be the
last guy to exaggerate this.  

-- Sydney, reminded by husband that it's a really beautiful day and we
should go OUT RIGHT NOW okay okay!