[HPforGrownups] Re: ESE, DDM, OFH, or Grey? (WAS: DDM!Snape the definition)

[Scarah]

No: HPFGUIDX 162576

This is taking a long time to respond to all of these posts, sorry if
I neglected to address anything, it just got really long.

Carol stares in astonishment and responds:
<blink!> No wonder you don't accept DDM!Snape if that's your
impression of the (highly varied) theory. I do think that a few people
see everything Snape says or does as an act, but I've never
encountered a single person who argues that Snape loves freedom for
all or that his raison d'existence is the love of Dumbledore. What I
see, and what I think most DDM!Snapers see, is a deeply passionate,
deeply hurt, deeply resentful man who nevertheless is capable of
remorse and loyalty and courage, who, for his own personal reasons, is
willing to risk his life to help the one man who trusts him completely
bring down Voldemort. The explanations for his remorse and loyalty
vary.

Sarah:
OK, I think more and more all the time that I am DDM.  In a *way.*  ;)
 I don't think much of this really negates anything about OFH.  (I'd
personally assign a bit less emo to Snape, but that's really just
personal preference which doesn't affect the story all that much.)
I'm sure you have your own interpretation of "for his own personal
reasons," and so do I.  I think there are plot devices that basically
make Snape be DDM whether he likes it or not.  He has other choices of
course, but they don't include being as comfortable and/or alive
and/or non-imprisoned as he has hanging out with Dumbledore.

Carol:
The motives I see, and I think most DDM!Snapers see in these scenes,
are a desire to protect Draco (not just because of the UV, which he
took in the first place for the same reason) and to protect Harry,
however much he hates him, because he's the only one who can bring
down Voldemort.

Sarah:
If he's really Dumbledore's man, how could he let himself be put in a
position to be making a pact with bad guys to help kill Dumbledore?  I
see three possibilities.  1.  He's clueless and just made a mistake by
letting the girls put him on the spot. I don't believe this for a
second.   2.  He believes that Dumbledore would rather he protect
Draco over Dumbledore himself.  I think that's a bit of a stretch.  3.
 As I have already proposed and personally believe, he knows what
Narcissa is asking, and it doesn't conflict (much, maybe) with what
Dumbledore has already asked of Snape.

Carol:
There must be a reason
other than the Life Debt, which DD could easily have explained to
Harry when he had the chance as the reason he trusts Snape
*completely.*

Sarah:
If Dumbledore had a plausible, non-emotional, fact-based reason for
why he trusts Snape, the one thing he could *never* do is reveal it to
Harry Potter, failure at all things Occlumentic.  (If that is a word.)
 I assume you think a big reason for Dumbledore staging his big murder
is to progress Snape into new heights of Voldemort's trust.  (This
could be a wrong assumption, if it is forgive me, but it seems to be a
cornerstone of DDM, and I believe it too.)  If that's the case,
providing Voldemort (via Harry's unprotected mind) with a rational
reason to distrust Snape spells game over.  Dumbledore hesitates when
he's talking to Harry about this, because understandably he probably
thinks it's not fair to Harry to stay in the dark, then after
realizing it's bad strategy he gives Harry the stock answer.

Carol:
But that relatively simple plot device does not explain Snape's
passionate intensity, nor the look of hatred and revulsion, nor his
saving Harry from the Crucio. OFH!Snape wouldn't care what happened to
Harry; he only wants to save his own skin, Peter Pettigrew-style.

Sarah:
Passionate intensity?  Like when he didn't get the Order of Merlin?
It's not at odds with hatred and revulsion at all, I wouldn't think.
I put more reasons upthread, but no one really likes to do dirty work
is another very general one.

I think that if LDS is true, Dumbledore probably saved Snape by
transferring his debt onto Harry.  Plenty of reason to care what
happens to Harry.  Hatred and revulsion could even be caused in part
due to the knowledge that Snape no longer will have proximity to watch
Harry, of all things.  No reason not to accept Harry's torture though,
except that it tends to incapacitate one, leaving him open to other
spells from the DEs still on premises.

Carol:
And, again, if
the Life Debt were DD's sole reason for trusting Snape *completely*,
which involves more than trusting him not to kill Harry, why not tell
Harry when he had the chance? After all, Harry has known about the
Life Debt since SS/PS.

Sarah:
Where Dumbledore mentioned it pretty casually, where we might not put
it together.  :)

And again, because Harry fails Occlumency.  Voldemort can presumably
shuffle Harry's brain whenever he likes.  And that's one thing that
Dumbledore cannot have Voldemort finding out.

Magpie:
I don't see how OFH/LiD is not looking for wiggle room.  You need
wiggle room if you're OFY always. People who are out for themselves
don't make Unbreakable Vows to other people.

Sarah:
I kind of answered this already, but I think what is being asked in
the UV is within Snape's pre-established boundaries, which are
concurrent with what he has to do in order to not self-eviscerate,
therefore he doesn't have a problem doing it.

Magpie:
That's why, imo, OFH!Snape arguments always have to focus on the
fact that he's agreeing to kill Dumbledore instead of the more
important aspect, which is what happens if he doesn't do as he's
promised.

Sarah:
I think the more important aspect is what he's promised Dumbledore,
which is basically the same thing he's promising Narcissa.

Magpie:
Snape's
entire personality disappears replaced by a guy who's got to be
explained from top to bottom through exposition or our own
imagination. Yes, Rowling has kept us from guessing Snape's secret.
But she's also *got* us guessing by giving us actual clues to work
with.

Sarah:
LDS suffers from this problem no more badly than DDM or ESE, and
possibly less so.  And there are actual clues.  A theory should seek
to solve problems, right?  Problem:  Snape keeps saving Harry even
though he hates him.  If Snape were a huge fan of all that is
Dumbledore, maybe he'd be convinced that Harry and Neville aren't
jerks since they are liked by Dumbledore.  Problem: introduction to
important Life Debt magic which has yet to play out.  Problem:  no one
knows what that blasted Snape is up to.  There are more, but this is
just a theory that would wrap up a lot of things.

Magpie:
Dumbledore "imposing" on Snape--he's not imposing on him if he knows
Snape's going to kill Dumbledore to save himself. It doesn't matter
if it's according to Dumbledore's plan as well. Snape's not doing
him a favor.  DDM!Snape has reason to consider not fulfilling the
vow even if it means death to himself.

Sarah:
Of course he does.  It's entirely possible I have misrepresented my
argument.  I know I said before that he didn't have "choice one," but
in fact he does.  It's just that none of them will probably have very
good results.  Snape has several choices here.  He can wait for Draco
to kill Dumbledore.  If Draco manages to do that before Dumbledore
dies of other causes, that might be OK for Snape.  (Depends on what he
promised Dumbledore, he could have said several things there.)  Snape
can also wait for the poison to kill Dumbledore.  This wouldn't be
very good for DDM or LDS since it may allow Harry to become
Dumbledore's murderer, though I'm not sure about that.  Another thing
Snape can do is attempt to revive or cure Dumbledore.  If Dumbledore
has been working to establish Snape's DE status better than ever
before, as I believe, then doing this in front of the witnesses
present would not be good for just about anyone involved.

Magpie:
I admit I haven't quite understood the explanation for the UV in
this theory. It seems like it only understands why Snape would agree
to kill Dumbledore rather than explaining why he'd agree to die if
he didn't kill Dumbledore.

Sarah:
It makes sense if and only if LDS's Life Debt was transferred to
Harry.  Dumbledore's mission in life is to defeat Voldemort.  Harry is
the weapon.  Having a protector for Harry therefore helps the cause.
Having a spy who outlives Dumbledore also helps the cause.
Dumbledore's plan is convoluted, and related to the fact he's going to
drop dead of various issues any minute anyway.  If Dumbledore told
Snape, look, your best bet for protecting Harry is to kill me blah
blah, then LDS Snape already has to do it to escape other gnarly
magical consequences which may or may not include death, or may be
"worse."

Debbie:
One person's beauty is another's deep disappointment.  At bottom, I think we
are all here because JKR is a character-driven writer.

Sarah:
Really?  :D I always liked her characters but thought she was a plot
driven writer.  Hmm, I think Snape will be solved by plot, others
think he will be solved by his character traits!  Imagine that.

Magpie:
I don't know if this is the classified part, but I just don't get what the
Life Debt could possibly do that makes Snape need to fulfill it so badly.

Sarah:
Judging by the introduction of the UV, I would say it's possible that
it is death at the least.  Not written in stone, just possible.

Sarah