ESE, DDM, OFH, or Grey? (WAS: DDM!Snape the definition)

[Jen Reese]

No: HPFGUIDX 162583

> Sydney:
> Oh, yeah!  And I think this is what grates on people who imagine
> DDM!Snape as cuddly guy who 'became good' or something. 

Jen: Noble Snape willing-to-die-for-the-cause is difficult to take, 
including willingness to die for Draco.  And while I'm on the 
subject, any version of Snape as misunderstood, diamond in the rough 
or scapegoated, any version where the outside is one way and the 
inside is another makes DDM ring false for me, I find myself wanting 
him to be evil just so he doesn't have to suffer what I see as a 
makeover.  I'm opinionated on this one...no one can tell, right? 

Sydney: 
> But I think the exact same things that drove Snape to join the DE's 
> are still driving him, and they're not happy fluffy things:  
> they're rage, shame, hatred, self-destruction, and a thirst for 
> vengeance.  It's just pointed the other way.  I guess personally I 
> see Snape as an extremist, and like a lot of extremists it's not so 
> much the cause in the abstract that's attractive as the opportunity 
> to lose himself in it and keep him from facing up to his own 
> issues.  

Jen: Now this Snape I recognize.  The only thing is Snape's return to 
Dumbledore was desperation, wanting to stop the process he himself 
set in motion. So he wasn't turning to lose himself in a cause, he 
needed *help*.  He stayed on, after the Potters were killed and after 
Voldemort turned to vapor and that part interests me for Grey.  
Dumbledore didn't accomplish what Snape wanted, was the fact that DD 
attempted to save the Potters enough for him?  Was the thought of 
vengeance one day should Voldemort return enough to keep him on 
Dumbledore's side? The other pratical problem is Snape didn't have 
options, no money like Lucius or connections and/or money like 
Karkaroff, he couldn't buy his way into another job and upgrade from 
former DE.  Being stuck does not loyalty make and there wasn't a 
cause going on to lose himself in unless it was the dunderheads.

Sydney:
> That's where the whole Draco thing gets so interesting because you
> can see Dumbledore's 'love' method of fighting in action-- he
> empathises with Draco and draws him in, which is exactly what I 
> think he did with Snape.  On the symbolic level insofar as Rowlings
> using the whole Jungian Shadow thing, it's about integrating the 
> dark side rather than rejecting it.

Jen:  I see this coming into play with Harry and Snape more than 
Harry and Voldemort (I agree the Room of Love will be the non-killing 
method of vanquishing Voldemort).  Some combination of Harry being 
tempted to kill a weakened Snape, probably a Voldemort trap, and 
overcoming the temptation because he finally sees something of Snape 
in himself.  Now here's where I think a struggling-with-his-loyalty 
Snape or at least a Snape who didn't see eye-to-eye with Dumbledore 
fits in.  See I think Harry could really identify with Snape's 
dilemma after his own taste of what it was like to work for DD in 
HBP, what he asked of his followers.  Whatever the point of 
connection I hope it's not Lily.  Her empathy of Snape leading to 
Harry recognizing empathy in himself and Snape's love for Lily is 
fine as long as Harry and Snape never have to have a *conversation* 
about it!  Ick, ick. 

Snape
> He definitely didn't have to take the Vow.  I have a lot of vague
> theories about that... my most crazy one, if you'd like to hear it,
> is that he actually took the vow to force the DADA job issue.  I 
> know, I know, it sounds mental, but the DADA job is the one thing 
> Snape really seems to be after for some mysterious reason, and the 
> Vow definitely would have forced Dumbledore's hand.  And the next
> thing we see is Dumbledore going off to hire himself a Potions 
> guy.  

Jen: I can add extortion to my list of Snape crimes, lol. I sorta see 
the reverse with Dumbledore needing to get Slughorn for the memory so 
he moves Snape with some reservations about it and boom, with the 
DADA curse in play Snape's past comes back to haunt him.  He thinks 
he's above such things and can outwit the DADA and all that, just 
like he thinks he can outwit Voldemort in the end and *that* will 
catch up with him, too.  Well and I'm still tied to the idea he 
really does have a fascination with dark arts and that was part of 
his undoing with Narcissa, that he got caught up in dark magic again.

> Sydney:
> In your theory, is Dumbledore begging for Snape to kill him, or not
> to kill him?  Because the one scenario where Dumbledore could
> totally trust Snape completely as being on his side but still have
> to plead, IMO, is the "do this awful thing for me" scenario.  Harry
> wasn't sure he was feeding Dumbledore poison, plus he didn't have a
> chance to really think about the situation; whereas whatever is
> going on between Snape and Dumbledore here, it's something they've
> hashed over before.  

Jen: I'm thinking the awful thing Snape has to do is choose Harry's 
life over Dumbledore's.  Dumbledore is pleading for Snape to save the 
boys and carry out his plan for Harry from the inside and *Snape* 
decides what must be done.  The only thing that bothers me about this 
scenario is DD lands on the tower under the Dark Mark and tells Harry 
to get Snape.  Dumbledore knows the death that night will be his own 
and he doesn't ask Harry to get heroic willing-to-die-for-the-cause 
Order members, he asks for Snape.  But still I like the idea that 
Snape's redemption will have added value if he wasn't just following 
an order, that he made a choice and has to live with it.  Live with 
the resentment toward Dumbledore, Harry and even Draco and still 
follow Dumbledore's plan at the same time.

Jen R.