ESE, DDM, OFH, or Grey? (WAS: DDM!Snape the definition)

[justcarol67]

No: HPFGUIDX 162608

Jen wrote: 

DDM makes some assumptions about the tower like saying Dumbledore and
Snape have planned for Snape to kill him when the time comes or that
the two of them are simpatico on the tower and know exactly how to
proceed.  I'm just not reading as much premeditation on the tower as I
once did. 
> 

Carol responds:
I don't think that DDM! makes any such presumptions. I certainly don't
think, for example, that there was any plan in which Snape *had* to
kill Dumbledore. I think both of them did whatever they could to
postpone any confrontation as long as possible, and that Snape, at
least, hoped that he wouldn't have to do it, whereas Dumbledore, who
was preparing all year for his own absence, was more ready to face the
inevitable. I do think that they both knew, especially after Snape
accepted the DADA position, that he would have to go deep undercover
at the end of the year. 

So "Severus, please" doesn't exactly mean "Severus, please kill me."
It's more like "Severus, please do what you have to do." So Snape,
knowing that he can't save Dumbledore and that it would be futile to
die heroically, chooses not only to kill DD but to get his body off
the tower, save the boys, and get the DEs out of Hogwarts. So he's
Dumbledore's man in that he's faithful to him to the end and in his
rage at having to kill him, but his own man in making that choice and
having to figure out exactly what to do. The circumstances on the
tower could not have been anticipated; Snape has to make a choice he
hoped he wouldn't have to make and to take additional action. It isn't
just Dumbledore's weak and wandless state that he didn't expect. He
didn't expect Harry Potter to be there under the Invisibility Cloak,
either. But either he figured it out, being Snape, or that's what the
silent communication was about. Maybe both.

Jen:
> For Dumbledore he is in an impossible situation as he slips down the
ramparts dying.  He has to think about Harry frozen and possibly being
discovered if Malfoy suddenly remembers the two brooms or more people
come through the door and find him when both are defenseless. Draco
has lowered his wand but his future is far from assured and he and his
family are in great danger now.  Dumbledore is surrounded by 
increasingly angry DE's with a Voldemort Horcrux hidden in his robes.
 I just don't think the first thing he thinks about when Snape bursts
through the door is the UV.

Carol:
I disagree. At this point, the UV *is* Snape. It, and the DADA curse,
have placed him in his position. But only he can determine his fate,
and only he can save the boys on the tower. I'd say that the UV is
very much on Dumbledore's mind, *especially* with Draco's lowered
wand, which makes it necessary for Snape to take action ("if it seems
Draco will fail"). Both of them know that LV will kill Draco if he
fails--unless Snape can take the burden of Dumbledore's murder on
himself. 

BTW, I hadn't thought about the (fake) Horcrux in his robes. *If* the
exchanged glance involved Legilimency, could it have included the
concealed Horcrux? That would be yet another reason for Snape to send
DD's body over the battlements. The last thing DDM!Snape wants,
assuming that he knows about the Horcruxes, is for the DEs to find
one, even if they don't know what it is, and Harry would certainly
have fought to rescue it as well as to avenge Dumbledore. One more
reason for Snape to kill DD himself rather than risk his dying from
the poison and himself dying from the broken UV.
> 
Jen:
> Snape would definitely think about the UV once his eyes sweep the 
room and he takes in what's happening and hears Draco can't go 
through with it thus activating the third clause in the Vow.  Whether
he sees the brooms when he first walks in or when he comes closer to
DD it's hard to say.  Either way at some point he realizes Harry is 
on the tower, too.
> 
Carol:
I agree that snape knew that Harry was on the tower in his IC. If
Draco saw the brooms, then Snape saw them, too, as his eyes swept the
room. And, unlike Draco, he'd have no difficulty understanding who the
other person was or why he had disappeared. I think Snape knows within
seconds of entering the room exactly what the situation is: Dumbledore
is dying, Harry is there and will be killed if he comes rushing out to
fight the DEs, Draco is failing and in danger of death, the UV is
activated. And yet he hesitates, looking at Dumbledore when DD calls
his name, but not raising his wand. Only when Dumbledore says
"Severus, please" does he raise his wand, and the expression on his
face shows that he hates what he has to do. But he takes the situation
in hand, kills DD to save Draco, gets the body off the tower, saves
the boys, and gets the DEs out of Hogwarts, with a few last-minute
lessons for Harry into the bargain.

Jen:
> "Kill me" presumes both men have the UV uppermost in their minds.

Carol:
But DDM!Snape doesn't presume that "Severus, please" means "Kill me."
It presumes something along the lines of "Do what you have to do," 
"Keep your vow," or "Remember your promise," all of which require
Snape to kill Dumbledore (as does "Please save Harry"). I think it's
the second: Snape did make a promise which he wanted to get out of; we
just don't know what it is. 

We do know, however, that DD is dying and can't be saved (the DEs will
kill him if the poison doesn't). And we know that Snape has, for a
long time, been part of Dumbledore's plans. ("If you are ready; if you
are prepared," and that he has chosen that role. He could have fled
like Karkaroff or returned to Voldemort and remained with him, but he
chose to stay with DD at Hogwarts.) Almost certainly, DD wants Snape
to live, to go back to Voldemort and get as close to the Dark Lord as
he can. 

And, of course, he also wants Snape to save the boys. There is no
other way to save them than for Snape to kill Dumbledore. If Snape
dies from the UV, the DEs or Voldemort will kill Draco for failing and
Harry will rush out and try to take on all four at once. He couldn't
even save himself from Greyback alone. Someone else (just possibly
Snape) had to do it. So, paradoxically, Dumbledore's man can't defend
Dumbledore, much less pull out a complex antidote from his pocket and
save him. He has to kill him. What a terrible dilemma. No wonder Snape
hesitated, preferring to die rather than bring such hatred and enmity
on himself. 

Far from saving himself for the sake of living, as the miserable rat
Peter Pettigrew would have done, he is saving himself to act as
Dumbledore's agent in circumstances that no one will understand.
Killing Dumbledore places him in greater peril than he has ever been
in and strips away his allies in the Order. He's now wholly on his
own, until and unless he gets Harry to understand his actions, which
he can hardly explain under the circumstances. No wonder he reacted so
strongly to Harry's "Kill me like you killed him, you coward!" (No,
Pippin, I don't think that remark referred to James, whom Snape did
not kill, helpless and unarmed, as Harry is and Dumbledore was. James
died fighting Voldemort as a result of Snape's failure to protect him.
Snape is not going to let the same thing happen to James's son no
matter how much he hates him.)

Jen:
> This is hard for me to believe with Dumbledore.  I think his 
> *greatest* fear is for the boy who holds the secret now to defeating 
> Voldemort and is the only person who knows about the Horcrux.

Carol:
Yes, of course. And DDM!Snape takes that into account. Harry's
presence is wholly unanticipated, but Snape's actions and Dumbledore's
"Severus, please" take it into account. But it's not the only reason
that Snape has to kill Dumbledore. He would have had to do it to save
Draco, get the DEs out of Hogwarts, and get close to Voldemort in any
case. Harry's presence just makes his decision all the more urgent and
all the more painful. Bad enough to murder Dumbledore in front of
Draco, but with *Harry* as witness! No wonder he's enraged.

Jen:  
> Dumbledore's faced with a man with hatred and revulsion on his face 
> who doesn't happen to think Harry is more valuable than Dumbledore 
> because he doesn't know or believe everything that Dumbledore does.

Carol:
Here's where our assumptions differ, and I realize that they are only
assumptions. I can't tell how you read the look of hatred and
revulsion (hatred of Harry? revulsion at what?), but I read it as
hatred of himself and revulsion at the deed he has to do (and maybe
temporary hatred of Dumbledore for wanting him to do it). I also think
that Snape knows exactly how valuable Harry is (he knows the first
part of the Prophecy, after all) and has been trying to get this
"mediocre" boy to shape for six years, not to mention protecting and
even saving him at every opportunity. Yes, he hates him, but the last
thing he wants is for Harry to die. Otherwise, he would have just done
nothing in SS/PS like everyone else, and would not have struggled to
teach Harry Occlumency, would not have rescued him from the MoM or the
Crucio, would not have yelled at him to "shut his mouth and close his
mind" and stop casting Unforgiveables.

Jen:  
> This same guy has let him down before in regards to Harry because of
wounds that run 'too deep' and yet he's Dumbledore's only hope in this
moment. 

Carol:
I think that both Snape and Dumbledore knew that the Occlumency
lessons weren't working and that they might even have been making
matters worse. Dumbledore is certainly not upset with Snape, nor is
there any indication that he feels "let down" by him. He still "trusts
Severus Snape completely." The failure of the Occlumency lessons was
as much Harry's fault as Snape's, but Dumbledore can hardly say that
at the moment, so he uses Snape's antipathy for James as a cover story
and takes the blame upon himself. You don't trust a man with your own
life and that of the Prophecy Boy or give him the cursed DADA position
unless you trust him *completely.* The Occlumency fiasco has no
bearing whatever on Dumbledore's confidence in Snape, who after all,
sent the Order to rescue Harry and company quite soon after the end of
the Occlumency lessons. One or two more lessons would have made no
difference. Harry *wanted* to have that dream, to see that vision in
Professor Binn's class. He chose to believe the vision despite
Hermione's commonsense objections. None of that is any fault of Snape's.

Jen:
Couldn't all that make Dumbledore plead for Harry's life?  Why can't
the decision to kill DD be Snape's alone because he doesn't see
another way out of the situation and not because Dumbledore is
pleading to be killed?

Carol:
Maybe others are arguing against this position, but I think that "save
Harry" is *one* of the reasons for Dumbledore's pleading and *one* of
the things that Snape--*as Dumbledore's man*--knows that he has to do.
But it's not the only reason for his pleading. Snape has to save
Draco, too, and he has to get the DEs out of Hogwarts, and he has to
rejoin Voldemort under deep, deep cover. There's only one way to
accomplish all that, and that's to keep the vow. After that, Snape is
on his own to keep the situation under control to the extent that's
possible, starting with getting Dumbledore's body off the tower,
grabbing Draco like a drowning kitten, and ordering the DEs out of
Hogwarts. "It's over! Let's go!"

Jen:
  I don't think Dumbledore had to be worrying about ways and means
while the life is draining out of him.  It's more consistent to me
that he would be thinking about Harry, Draco and the students below in
his dying moments.
> 
Carol:
Exactly. Dumbledore is placing *everything* in Snape's hands.
"Severus, please do what you have to do." Aside from killing
Dumbledore and keeping the vow, it's up to Snape to figure out how to
do that. Dumbledore isn't saying, "Severus, please kill me, send my
body over the battlements, get the DEs off the tower before Harry
rushes out to fight them, keep them from running rampant in Hogwarts,
and don't let them kill or kidnap Draco." Snape, putting two and two
together as only Snape can, knows that he has to do all that, and does
it quite competently, even with Harry following him and getting
himself Crucio'd in the process. But, on the tower, he hesitates to
kill Dumbledore, to become a murderer for the cause (till now, he's
always "slithered out of action" involving Unforgiveable Curses, IMO),
to make his name anathema in the WW (hardly anyone even knew that he
was a Death Eater). Killing Dumbledore costs him everything he had:
freedom, employment, respect, the trust of the Order. In its place, he
has the hatred of the WW, the increased peril of a fugitive, and
service to the very Wizard he wants to destroy. But, for Dumbledore
and for Draco and for the Chosen One he loathes and for the WW, Snape
does what he has to do. OFH!Snape would never have taken the UV or
rushed onto the tower. He'd have found a way to "slither out of
action" for either side.

Jen:
> This idea works with the moment Harry says "Kill me like you killed 
> him" because Snape is both enraged and in deep pain.  He can't 
> explain anything, he can't taunt Harry back about how worthless he 
> is, that HE should have died on the tower instead of Dumbledore. And 
> Snape knows once again he royally messed up just like he did when he 
> handed over the prophecy only he has no one to turn to this time. He 
> killed the one person who gave him a second chance and helped him 
> after his last big mistake.
> 
Carol:
I agree that Snape is in deep pain over killing Dumbledore and perhaps
he does blame himself for taking the UV. And of course he can't tell
Harry why he did it. But it's not *just* a matter of saving Harry.
Snape had to keep his vow to save Draco and himself for his upcoming
crucial role in helping Harry against the DEs. There was no way to
save Dumbledore from death, though Snape did save his body from
becoming "afters" for Fenrir Greyback. Only Snape could save Harry and
Draco and get the DEs off the tower. And Snape had to return to
Voldemort at the end of the year, as both he and Dumbledore would have
known. That much they would surely have planned for. Snape is in agony
because he just killed the only man who ever fully trusted him, in
part to save the boy who is calling him a coward and in part to obey
Dumbledore's last wishes (not orders) in other respects. He knows that
his situation is in part his own fault, the consequence not only of
the UV (which he took to save Draco and then found himself caught in
that last unanticipated provision) and of joining the DEs in the first
place and revealing the partial Prophecy to Voldemort. Despite his
best efforts, he has again been responsible for a death that he wanted
to prevent, but that death was necessary for the war on Voldemort to
continue. If Snape had died on the tower along with Dumbledore, so
would Draco, and, more important, so would Harry. Voldemort would have
won. And Harry *must* come to understand that but, of course, he
doesn't understand it now.

Jen:
> So I'm saying there doesn't have to be a logical equivalency to
'kill me' and 'save Harry and continue with our plan' if JKR is
looking ahead when she wrote the tower scene instead of looking back.
 She knows what's in store for Snape and he may very well need blood
on his hands for his mistake to get where she's taking him.

Carol:
Acutally, I think you *do* believe in DDM!Snape, who *chooses* to do
Dumbledore's will rather than being bound to do it by, say, a Life
Debt or a last-minute order that he must obey. That's exactly what I
think, as well. The only difference between your view and that of
other DDM!Snapers that I can see is that you think that "Severus,
please" means "please save Harry," not "please kill me" or "please
carry out our plan." I agree that there was no detailed plan beyond
joining the DEs at the end of the year and making sure that Draco was
neither a murder victim nor a murderer. Neither of them anticipated
Draco's success in getting the DEs into Hogwarts or DD's wandless,
dying state, much less Harry's presence, none of which could have been
part of their plan (though Snape's promise implies a plan of *some*
sort). 

And we agree that "Severus, please" didn't mean "Please don't kill me"
or "Please don't split your soul." DDM!Snape does not require it to
mean "Please kill me." I think it meant, in essence, "please do what
you have to do." And that, of course, meant keeping the Vow and
figuring out what else to do to save the boys and get the DEs out of
Hogwarts. We both think that the element of choice is involved.
Dumbledore's *Man* doesn't mean Dumbledore's *Slave." Just look at
Harry, "Dumbledore's man through and through," who nevertheless
doesn't realize that snape is Dumbledore's man, too.

Carol, now wondering if Snape knew about the supposed Horcrux in
Dumbledore's robes