ESE, DDM, OFH, or Grey? (WAS: DDM!Snape the definition)

[zgirnius]

No: HPFGUIDX 162603

> Jen: DDM makes some assumptions about the tower like saying 
> Dumbledore and Snape have planned for Snape to kill him when the 
time 
> comes or that the two of them are simpatico on the tower and know 
> exactly how to proceed.  I'm just not reading as much premeditation 
> on the tower as I once did. 

zgirnius:
I've never believed in any premeditation there. I am aware of the 
theories of a long-laid plan for Snape to kill Dumbledore, and I see 
where people are getting the idea, but I don't buy it myself. If 
Snape makes his choice on the Tower because he sees it as the only 
way he can save Harry and continue his spying mission, he's not Grey 
in my eyes, he's DDM.

> Jen:
> I just don't think the first thing he thinks about when Snape 
> bursts through the door is the UV.

zgirnius:
Possibly not. As a practical matter, though, it can't be ignored. It 
definitely limits what Snape can do, if Snape doing it for longer 
than the next few seconds is desired, which is why I think Dumbledore 
would be thinking/worrying about it among other things. On an 
emotional level he might care less about it than other factors, but 
it becomes important once it becomes clear that whatever actions that 
will be taken to rescue Harry and Draco will have to be taken by 
Snape. If Snape dies after eliminating, say, one Death Eater from the 
fight, how have Draco and Harry's predicaments gotten significantly 
better? He seems quite on top of his game mentally, I don't think 
he'd miss this fact.

Jen:
> Snape would definitely think about the UV once his eyes sweep the 
> room and he takes in what's happening and hears Draco can't go 
> through with it thus activating the third clause in the Vow.  

zgirnius:
Not to mention the Death Eater who helpfully summarizes the situation 
for Snape as soon as he shows up: "The boy does not seem able" 

Jen:
>Whether 
> he sees the brooms when he first walks in or when he comes closer 
to 
> DD it's hard to say.  Either way at some point he realizes Harry is 
> on the tower, too.

zgirnius:
I tend to think he saw the brooms. Not merely because he would, he's  
an observant person, but because I don't quite see why Rowling would 
mention them at all, else. Draco does not put two and two together, 
so it's a somewhat pointless throwaway bit in the conversation if 
noone else makes the connection.

Jen:
> Dumbledore's faced with a man with hatred and revulsion on his face 
> who doesn't happen to think Harry is more valuable than Dumbledore 
> because he doesn't know or believe everything that Dumbledore does. 

zgirnius:
This hatred and revulsion is not Snape's initial reaction to the 
situation, or to Dumbledore. His expression is not worthy of comment 
until after he has walked in and approached Dumbledore. Dumbledore's 
immediate reaction to Snape's appearance suggests to me that he wants 
to communicate something *right then*. If what this something is 
changes when Snape's expression does, I wonder what the two distinct 
somethings are.

Jen:
> Why can't the decision to kill DD be Snape's alone because he 
> doesn't see another way out of the situation and not because 
> Dumbledore is pleading to be killed?  I don't think Dumbledore had 
to 
> be worrying about ways and means while the life is draining out of 
> him.  It's more consistent to me that he would be thinking about 
> Harry, Draco and the students below in his dying moments.

zgirnius:
I could see that, yes. Here's the question, though. What different 
choice by Snape at that moment would make him DDM, as opposed to 
Grey? 

There's also the description of the body, with his eyes closed, and 
the appearance of sleep. Sure, Dumbledore would be all about calm 
acceptance of 'the next great adventure' on his own account, but not, 
I think, if he was in horrible doubt about the immediate fates of 
Harry, Draco, and his students after his death. It still seems to me 
that he must have seen the same solution Snape saw, at least in his 
final moments, whether or not he communicated it successfully.


zgirnius:
> This idea works with the moment Harry says "Kill me like you killed 
> him" because Snape is both enraged and in deep pain.  He can't 
> explain anything, he can't taunt Harry back about how worthless he 
> is, that HE should have died on the tower instead of Dumbledore. 
And 
> Snape knows once again he royally messed up just like he did when 
he 
> handed over the prophecy only he has no one to turn to this time. 
He 
> killed the one person who gave him a second chance and helped him 
> after his last big mistake.

zgirnius:
This is definitely still there with DDM, and even if Dumbledore *was* 
able to communicate his wish to be killed by Snape explicitly before 
the end. The tactical situation on the Tower was materially different 
because of the Unbreakable Vow, for which I believe Snape would blame 
on himelf. He has blood on his hands, no question.