[HPforGrownups] Re: ESE, DDM, OFH, or Grey? Snape with Lifedebt

[Magpie]

No: HPFGUIDX 162613

Cringing at typos...

> Now Shelley's response:
> I think that I agree with Sarah on this point. Let's face it, if we accept
> the Snape/Lilly attraction (which I don't, btw), and we assume that Snape
> truly tried to do a selfless, kind act (which I also don't think he did),
> and then Harry finds out this, is this suddenly supposed to change ALL of
> Harry's experiences with Snape so far? I don't think it would. Snakes
> don't
> change their nature; leopards don't change their spots. Harry sees Snape
> as
> something to be loathed, and it's because of Snape's actions that Harry
> sees
> him that way. To say that he "once" tried to do something good would just
> be
> unbelievable.

Magpie:
But Snape didn't "once" try to do something good. The point is that he's 
always been driven by that same guilt since Harry's known him. It's not 
something to change Harry's impression from Snape being a nasty git to Snape 
being a really nice guy.  Not every new understanding has to change him from 
black to white.  He can understand that Dumbledore was right to trust Snape 
without seeing Snape as a nice guy he wants to hang out with.

Shelley:
And to think that Snape had loved his mother- that is about on> par with 
having Draco, who's also been known to do some nasty name-calling
> and ill-treatment to Muggleborns, to suddenly announce that he's in love
> with Hermione. A Slytherin, going after a Gryffindor, after he's made it
> clear that he doesn't like their kind? I think it would be enough to see
> Snape as sick and demented- a pervert who was placing his affections
> inappropriately.

Magpie:
Snape wouldn't have to be going after Lily because he's got a kink for 
people he finds inferior. The idea would be that Lily meant something to 
Snape outside of his DE beliefs, maybe before he had them (and perhaps after 
he no longer had them). If Snape/Lily turns out to be true I doubt it will 
have anything to do with lust.

Shelley:
 Lilly married someone else- she had a child by someone
> else. To have him STILL messing with their lives after they moved on is
> just
> sick- and I hardly think that Harry would see this as a good thing. Snape
> would have been an obsessed stalker. I think Harry would "grossed out to
> the
> max, and hate Snape more than ever".

Magpie:
In trying to stop Voldemort going after Lily Snape was also protecting 
James, the man she loved, and their baby. If he was a stalker he'd want them
dead so he could have Lily for himself. Trying to protect her family because 
they mean something to her is more like actual care for her over his own 
desires.

Shelley:
> I don't think we will have Rowling doing any about-faces with Snape- no
> sudden changes of heart, no softening to become the good guy, no
> hard-exterior Snape with this goody-ewey good center, no once heroic deeds
> in his past that changes Harry's mind about him. His fate is forever
> sealed
> as the evil, self-centered git, the slimy guy to be loathed. The readers
> have reason to hate him now that he's killed Dumbledore. There is NO
> forgiving of that, no matter how he may plead, beg, or try to undo his
> actions. Even if we assume that the two of them (DD and Snape) plotted
> this
> beforehand, I can't see Harry ever saying that this is "good", or "ok", or
> ever forgiving Snape for it. Dumbledore is dead, all because of Snape.
> Snape
> did have a choice- he could have saved DD, fought the death eaters. That's
> what Harry would have done, even at the risk of his own life.

Magpie:
Leaving aside that fighting for Dumbledore there might be heroic but also 
pointless, if Harry would never do something like that then why did he
forcefeed Dumbeldore poison, thus rendering him unable to fight himself, 
earlier in the evening? Snape being revealed as DDM has nothing to do with
making him suddenly a nice guy. It reveals that he's always been on the side 
fighting for Harry. Harry never has to like Snape personally, but to not
acknowledge Snape doing things for his cause at great risk Harry wouldn't be 
too great either.

Shelley:
> I often hesitate to join this conversations about Snape's personality,
> especially when so many of these theories about who Snape really is are
> based upon a presumed Snape attraction for Lilly. I just don't think it
> ever
> happened. I just can't see Snape selflessly devoting his entire life to
> doing anything for anyone else. Even if he served Dumbledore, I have to
> think that he's got his own motives for it. DD provided him a job, kept
> his
> ass out of Azkaban, and Snape played along because it suited himself to do
> so, for more than just those obvious reasons.

Magpie:
Except there's no explanation given in canon for how he's got to do this 
stuff to stay out of Azkaban. Dumbledore himself sees him as being 
loyal--and Dumbledore is someone who stands for letting people make their 
own choices, not someone who relies on people he thinks will find it in 
their best interest to pretend to be on his side. He says he trusts Snape 
"completely" and is not presented as a character so stupid he doesn't see 
Snape's just trying to stay out of Azkaban. DDM doesn't have to mean that 
all his behavior has been good, but nor does Snape being a jerk mean that 
he's incapable of doing anything right.

Shelley:
He was a double spy, and I
> think that as so often as true with double spies, that they "play" loyal
> to
> both parties, and both end up thinking that "he's their man", but only
> that
> double spy knows which way he really will turn when the hand is forced.

Magpie:
But it might turn out that he turned to Dumbledore.

Shelley:
I
> think Dumbledore was being wronged all this time, fooled by Snape, but he
> should have seen the warnings. How he treated Harry was a true indicator
> of
> his real character.

Magpie:
The same can be said for Voldemort. If he was wrong all this time, how Snape 
has protected Harry has been a true indicator of his real character. Barty
Crouch, who was definitely a true Death Eater, treated Harry like a favored 
pupil.

-m