ESE, DDM, OFH, or Grey? (WAS: DDM!Snape the definition)

[sistermagpie]

No: HPFGUIDX 162666

> Magpie:
> But it's the self-eviscerate that's the problem, not agreeing to 
kill
> Dumbledore. If he doesn't want to eviscerate himself why is he 
taking a
> suicide pact?
> 
> Sarah:
> I know there's a lot to read here, but as I've been on about quite
> consistently, I believe that something as bad or worse will happen 
to
> Snape if he doesn't follow along.  Like if you had to go to work on
> Monday, but had already taken a death pact that you would go to 
work
> on Monday, so what's one more?

Magpie:
So the deadly pact isn't as big a deal it seems? Doesn't that 
undercut the drama? How would the fact that Snape's already 
frantically trying to get out of a completely different (vaguely 
worse) magical deadly thing make this no big deal? Doesn't the UV, 
by restricting his movements, make it harder for him to act on his 
own behalf? And since the UV is about something totally different 
how can it just fall under the same umbrella as the Life Debt? 

Also, I know you've consistently claimed that the Life Debt 
threatens Snape with something very bad, even worse than death, but 
this still flies in the face of all evidence in canon where Snape is 
described as feeling in debt to James, who died and left Snape okay. 
Everything we've seen points to the opposite idea, that the Life 
Debt doesn't lead to that kind of punishment at all.

> Magpie:
> The way DDM actually answers these questions is that Snape is 
driven by
> remorse over the events at Godric's Hollow, which fuels both his 
desire to
> protect Harry and his hatred of him. It made him switch sides, and 
he became
> loyal to Dumbledore.
> 
> Sarah:
> Remorse, which is almost impossible absent Snape/Lily, which won't
> happen narratively because Harry would be in the bucket puking the
> rest of the book.  It is exactly this line of thinking which led 
me to
> plot device/Life Debt reasoning.

Magpie:
Remorse is not impossible without Snape/Lily. DD has said that Snape 
felt great remorse and left the reason for that mysteriously unsaid, 
indicating that we're going to get some reason for it, even if it 
isn't Snape/Lily. But I don't believe Snape/Lily would necessarily 
lead to Harry puking. Why would he puke over the idea that someone 
thought his mother was wonderful and cared about her?  It might make 
many readers puke, but that doesn't give any evidence to the Life 
Debt. I don't think Dumbledore's line about remorse is a lie or 
ironic, which it seems it is in the LiD scenario.

> Magpie:
> The Debt itself, if it's the
> kind of magical contract you describe here, wouldn't hop over to 
Harry. It
> would play out on Snape at James' death and he would die or 
something worse.
> He didn't.
> 
> Sarah:
> Well, Dumbledore is Dumbledore.  He can do a lot of things.  A lot 
of
> things are not canon.    Life Debt has a lot more potential than
> Snape/Lily, in my opinion.  And, I didn't originate the "upgraded 
Life
> Debt" idea, that was someone else.

Magpie:
Snape/Lily does not have any evidence in canon as of yet. Some of us 
feel like it's going that way so we're going to hear evidence later 
(whether we like it or not), but we can't take it as a given at all. 
But it is at least connected to canon in that it's an answer to the 
question of "why was Snape so remorseful over giving LV the 
prophecy?" which Dumbledore waving his hands and transfering the 
Life Debt doesn't if you think, as I do based on the character and 
how the line is written, that Dumbledore is referring to actual 
remorse and not a magical trap where "remorse" is ironic. That kind 
of magical trap seems to go against Dumbledore's character because 
when he says he trusts Snape completely what he means is that he put 
a whammy on him so he's got to try to protect Harry (which of course 
doesn't make him trustworthy at all, so why claim to trust him?). I 
don't think Dumbledore would describe that as trusting someone 
completely--I also don't think he would put that kind of whammy on 
someone to force them to do what he wanted (while also threatening 
him with Azkaban?). Plus the Life Debt as ancient magic is 
completely undercut. It's now something a smart Wizard can play 
with. Dumbledore couldn't even, as far as we know, undo the 
TriWizard contract.

Magpie:
Except there's no explanation given in canon for how he's got to do 
this stuff to stay out of Azkaban.

Sarah:
But there is. He has to do all the stuff Dumbledore wants him to.

Magpie:
That's not an explanation. I think it's circular logic. It says that 
Snape doing stuff for Dumbledore because otherwise he'll go to 
Azkaban is proved by the fact that Snape is doing stuff for 
Dumbledore. Where's the independent signs of blackmail or a fear of 
Azkaban? In canon I think everything we see shows Snape perfectly 
free of his past. He shows his own Dark Mark to Fudge. Dumbledore's 
never shown signs of threatening him with some kind of punishment 
that I recall. He seems to be doing the opposite, as usual.


Sarah:
Dumbledore tells Harry that he believes Snape is 100% loyal. Harry,
Occlumency failure. I'm sure Dumbledore did let Snape make a fully
informed choice about what he was about to do with the Life Debt. I'm
sure Dumbledore reminds Snape of choices regularly.

Magpie:
So you are suggesting that when Dumbledore says that Snape is 100% 
loyal he is referring to something that he knows is hanging over 
Snape's head and not actual loyalty? How is Snape's refusal to 
continue the Occlumency lessons connected to the LD?  Shouldn't 
Snape have to do the lessons regardless of how he feels to protect 
Harry?  And doesn't Dumbledore's compassionate description of 
Snape's wounds being too deep to heal become kind of smarmy if he's 
reminding him that if he steps too far out of line he'll lose his 
soul? Or go to Azkaban? Snape seems to be hemmed in by different 
dreadful fates here, because none them explain his behavior well 
enough. There's little room left for him to be motivated by his own 
personality.

Magpie:
In trying to stop Voldemort going after Lily Snape was also 
protecting James, the man she loved, and their baby. If he was a 
stalker he'd want them dead so he could have Lily for himself.

Sarah:
Many people have used Snape/Lily to theorize about exactly this. (Or
even, Voldemort. I think that was called something like TEW EWW TO BE
TREWWW or something.) If anyone did that, I still nominate Peter.

Magpie:
Okay, that's a version of Snape/Lily I don't agree with, then, but 
it's not necessary for Lily to have motivated Snape.

-m