[HPforGrownups] Re: The UV (was ESE, DDM, OFH, or Grey?)

[Magpie]

No: HPFGUIDX 162694

>Magpie:
> If he needed that information why didn't he just let  Narcissa tell it to 
> him
> like she was going to before he himself jumped in  and said, "Don't tell 
> me?"
>
> Nikkalmati:
>
> Because Bella was there.  SS was taken by surprise by the visit and he
> didn't know what Bella was doing there.  Cissy was obviously very upset 
> and  he
> didn't want her to get reported to LV as a  traitor.

Magpie:
But Snape's goal was, I thought, finding out what Draco's task is. I can 
understand him wanting to protect Narcissa, but it still seems completely 
silly to have Snape literally shut Narcissa up (instead of letting her go on 
for the second more it would take for him to give him the basic idea) just 
so that he can do something incredibly stupid that endangers more people 
trying to find out the information he just cleverly kept her from telling 
him--oh, and btw, doesn't even give him the information he's looking for. 
He's like the world's worst spy. Plus if Snape doesn't actually know what 
he's talking about in the scene his lines all become less meaningful.

Nikki:
 (Why he cares  about her or
> Draco or Lucius, we don't know, but it must play into his  motivation). 
> He
> also wanted to appear before Bella to be a loyal DE.   [Of course, one 
> must
> never go against the wishes of the Dark Lord!]

Magpie:
But taking the Vow is supposed to be his way of trying to find out what 
Draco's task is--which it still doesn't. (And doesn't the Vow potentially 
fall under going against the wishes of the Dark Lord more than Narcissa 
spilling the beans? It even implies it to LV later.)

Nikki:
That  protects himself too.  He
> then turns away and thinks things over while  gazing out the window.

Magpie:
The Death Pact kind of undermines any superficial protection he's gotten 
elsewhere, though.

Nikki:
 He
> figures out how he can handle this and declares  "I already know all about 
> it."
> Witness shock on the part of Bella.   This lie protects Cissy, she is not 
> a
> traitor if LV has already told  Snape.  It also makes him appear to be not 
> only a
> loyal DE, but a favorite  of LV.  In that short time he must have decided 
> there
> was little chance  that Bella was going to report the meeting to LV and, 
> of
> course, after Bella  helps with the UV, she cannot report them without
> betraying herself too.
 Regardless, of whether SS knows the plan, they are all
> thwarting LV in his  attempt to destroy Draco.

Magpie:
Right, I can see that part of the reading. But it makes Snape's lines less 
meaningful because he's just faking it the whole time, so the whole 
conversation carries less weight. And he's still supposed to be taking the 
Vow to get information that the Vow doesn't give him (so he winds up vowing 
to die if he doesn't do something unknown to himself). He's also gone 
against Voldemort by taking the Vow quite possibly (Narcissa knows that 
she's going against Voldemort's orders by going to him at all), which 
Bellatrix could tell Voldemort about (which she may not do because she 
herself is protecting Narcissa).

With the vow Snape isn't exactly proving that he follows Voldemort's orders, 
just that he's anti-Dumbledore. In this case he's proving something by 
agreeing to kill Dumbledore, but he's not following Voldemort's orders, is 
he? As you say, they're all thwarting Voldemort's plan.

Nikki:
> It is also not clear that Cissy knows exactly what Draco is supposed to do
> either- only that it is likely to be outright fatal or unsuccessful and
> therefore fatal.

Magpie:
So now nobody knows what's actually going on? How sad. I read it as this 
really dramatic scene where everyone (including me, even the first time 
reading) knew that 16-year-old Draco Malfoy had been given the suicide 
mission of trying to kill Dumbledore. Snape's thoughtfully realizing 
Voldemort wants him (Snape) to do it in the end, Narcissa is rightfully 
frantic and seeing it as an attempt to get Draco killed, Bellatrix is 
crazily claiming it's an honor.

But really it's just a bunch of people who have the feeling Voldemort has 
told Draco to do something--could be anything--and they're running for help 
and taking Vows and accepting Vows without having any idea what they're 
vowing about? But having a conversation that makes it seem like they know 
they're going to talk about? What would Narcissa have said to Snape if Snape 
hadn't shut her up if she doesn't know any more than he does? What does she 
think "even the Dark Lord" can't do? (And how does Snape not figure it out 
from that clue?)
>

>>Magpie:
>>So the vow really  was completely useless. Why did Snape take it if he 
>>still
> had to figure out  what Draco's task was by just hanging around school and
> waiting to see what  Draco did? If he'd only not taken the vow he would 
> have
> gotten his  information without putting his and Dumbledore's life in 
> danger.
>
> Nikkalmati:
>
> SS's plan was that with a recommendation from Cissy, Draco would confide 
> in
> him willingly.  It appears that Bella interfered and convinced Draco that
> Snape was not on Draco's side.  "you are out to take my glory" is probably 
> her
> idea.  We see that Draco will not even come to Snape's office to talk  to 
> him
> and that he has learned Occlumency, presumably to use against  Snape. 
> Snape
> never did learn what Draco's plan was by hanging around the  school and 
> there
> was no way to predict that Draco would partially tip his hand  by 
> attempting
> murder.  Clearly, SS and DD never got the information they  needed or they 
> would
> not have been taken by surprise on the tower.  Yes,  the vow Snape 
> intended to
> take - to protect Draco- has so far been  useless.  The additional vow - 
> to
> do the deed- was a disaster.

Magpie:
But the Vow has nothing to do with any of this. There's nothing in the Vow 
that gives Snape the information he's looking for. The only way it would 
have done that would be if the Vow had to contain specific language, like, 
"You will watch over Draco as he attempts to fulfill the Dark Lord's wishes 
to [insert secret information]."  Snape's plan of trying to get Draco to 
confide in him didn't need the Vow.  Since Narcissa was about to tell him 
about the plan he could probably more easily have sent them away and then 
just set up a secret meeting with her anyway. Or just talk about how he was 
going to do this thing and get her to talk about the details of the plans 
that way. Once Bellatrix thinks Snape knows the plan there's no reason for 
anyone to worry about talking about it openly.

I don't think an author would write Snape cutting Narcissa off and then 
continuing on the conversation the way he does and taking the Vow if he 
really didn't know what he was doing. I don't see any beats in the scene the 
flag (as JKR would flag, imo) that Snape is actually just speaking vaguely 
hoping what he's saying matches up with the information he doesn't know. 
Plus I don't see any moment of shock and horror for Snape when he realizes 
what he's agreed to do--a moment I don't think JKR would hide from us if it 
happened, since it's Snape's tragic mistake. The vagueness of the scene 
still reads more logically to me as three people who know what they're 
talking about who are hiding it from the reader, not two people who are 
pretending they know what they are talking about.

-m