ESE, DDM, OFH, or Grey? (WAS: DDM!Snape the definition)

[justcarol67]

No: HPFGUIDX 162704



Sydney earlier:
> > > I really think it's necessary for it at least to have been
discussed as a possibilty for "Severus... please... " to make plain
sense with Snape immediately getting a handle on 'please, what'.
> > 
zgirnius responded:
> > Alternatively, Snape's reaction to Dumbledore addressing him on
the Tower is to approach him and make eye contact. 
> 
Sydney again:
> 
> First of all, I don't think Legilimency is a clear enough
communications medium to get that much information across.  It goes in
images, it's not like (AFAWK) hearing voices in your head.  I totally
agree there's Legilimency going on in that scene, but I really think
it makes more sense as a reminder, a farewell, and a comfort-- a
single image from their past perhaps-- than as this conversation that
suddenly happens from scratch.  It's not like they're staring at each
other for five minutes and anybody has time to think, "what's going
on?".  Snape only stared at Dumbledore for a *moment*.    
 
Carol responds:

I agree that there's some sort of communication in that glance, but
even though the single clear instance of Legilimency by eye contact
(instead of via the scar link) that we've seen, the image of the HBP's
Potions book rising to the forefront of Harry's mind, is purely
visual, I'm not sure that mutual Legilimency between two skilled
wizards cna't involve an exchange of words as well. There's no clear
indication whether the memories evoked by the Legilimens spell in the
Occlumency lessons included sound as well as sight, but Harry does try
to communicate in silent words with Snape in OoP: "Snape looked back
at Harry, who stared at him, frantic to communicate without words.
*Voldemort's got Sirius in the Department of Ministries,* he thought
desperately. *Voldemort's got Sirius--*" (OoP Am. ed. 745). 

Even though the narrator says "without words," Harry is thinking in
words. Granted, Snape probably doesn't need this message--his eyes
have already been "boring" into Harry's and Harry has been
"concentrating hard on what he had seen in his dream, willing Snape to
read it in his mind, to understand" (744-45), and just to make sure
that Snape gets the message, Harry yells, "He's got Padfoot! He's got
Padfoot at the place where it's hidden!" (745). One way or another,
Snape gets the message, and given the fact that he's a skilled
Legilimens trying to see into Harry's mind and Harry is *willing* him
to read his thoughts, there's little doubt, at least in my mind, that
Harry's shouted words were superfluous. the only question is whether
Snape "heard" Harry's silent words or whether they conveyed themselves
in a visual image of Sirius Black being tortured by Voldemort in the MoM.

Still, if Snape and Harry can communicate in this way, as it seems
that they do, I have no doubt that Dumbledore can communicate
similarly to Snape, either in words or in images, in an equally short
time. Exactly what he conveyed is, of course, a mystery, but it
clearly was some indication of what DD wanted Snape to do, and
"Severus, please!" was required to make him do it. And the only thing
that makes sense to me is that he wanted Snape to save the boys by
keeping his vow (and/or whatever promise he had made stemming from the
vow). The look of hatred and revulsion occurs simultaneously with
whatever he sees in Dumbledore's eyes: "Snape gazed for a moment at
Dumbledore, and there was revulsion and hatred etched in the harsh
lines of his face" (595)--revulsion and hatred that had not been there
a moment before when Snape's eyes scanned the room or when DD spoke
his name, prompting the exchanged glance. And even then, Snape doesn't
raise his wand until Dumbledore says, "Severus, please. . . ."

So there's an understanding at that moment, conveyed by Legilimency,
but whether it relates to a contingency plan or simply to the vow and
what Snape must do under these unforeseen circumstances is unclear.
I'm not taking away Snape's freedom of choice--he could have chosen to
ignore Dumbledore's wishes and die with him--but he clearly didn't
want to follow Dumbldore's orders. He either had to figure out, in an
instant, exactly what was required or nerve himself to do it or both.
I think, for example, that sending DD over the battlements was Snape's
own idea, an excellent one under the circumstances since it would have
been impossible to get the DEs out of the tower ahead of Harry otherwise.

Sydney:
> Plus, Dumbledore goes directly into the pleading.  Pleading just
seems like a really unusual tone for him, and I think he would only
use it if he was actually mostly sure that Snape would *not* do what
he was asking him to do. 

Carol:
The sequence of events is Snape looking around the room, Amycus
telling him that the boy can't do it, DD speaking Snape's first name,
Snape pushing Draco out of harm's way, the exchanged glances and look
of revulsion/hated, the pleading, and the raised wand and (highly
unusual) AK. I think we all agree that pleading is highly unusual for
DD (otherwise it wouldn't frighten Harry so badly), and I agree that
he wouldn't do it unless he wanted Snape to do something that Snape
didn't want to do, but I think the first "Severus" merely means "Look
at me." Then there's the exchanged message, which I agree is a
reminder of what's at stake and may include the necessity of saving
Harry into the bargain. Then we get the look of hatred and revulsion,
almost rebellion on Snape's part(?), and finally the "Severus, please"
that pushes him to do the terrible deed, to choose what's right (or at
least, the lesser of two evils which will also enable him to do some
good) over what's easy (but futile and only seemingly good), killing
DD but saving the boys over dying with him and ensuring the victory of
the DEs.

Sydney:
> 
> The whole scene makes so much more sense in terms of how quick and
how established and how transitionless both characters reactions are,
if this is a continuation of something they have both already
discussed before, and disagreed on before.  And we have a
disagreement, a heated disagreement already in the book, over
something Snape 'promised' to do that Dumbledore says he should do and
Snape says he doesn't want to.  I'm fairly sure JKR is going to give
is this conversation (with Hagrid and a Pensive, I guess), and that's
when she can show everything those characters were going through
emotionally that she can't show us now. 

Carol:
I actually agree with you here, I think. They must have discussed the
worst-case scenario--what if Draco succeeds in getting DEs into the
castle and the UV is activated? But I don't think either of them
really expected that to happen. I also think that Snape's joining the
DEs had been part of DD's long-range plan since at least the time when
Snape's Dark Mark started to become more vivid and that he was waiting
to give Snape the DADA class until the most opportune time for Snape
to do so.

I disagree that the choice to give him the DADA class occurred *after*
and as a result of the UV. The timing of the first four chapters is
extremely precise for a reason: they occur virtually simultaneously.
And Dumbledore would never have approached Slughorn to become Potions
Master, as he had done *before* the night that DD showed up on his
doorstep, without consulting with Snape in advance. Snape did not yet
know that Slughorn had said yes, or was about to say yes, when he told
Narcissa and Bella that he still had not received the DADA job, but
I'll bet anything he knew that it was in the works. DD wanted
Slughorn, and specifically Slughorn, not only to take Snape's place as
Potions Master this year (and later), but to fill in the empty
position of Head of Slytherin House the following year. Yes, he needed
that memory, but he could have obtained it without giving Slughorn
Snape's teaching position. Unless he needed, and wanted, Snape as DADA
teacher that year. Given all this, and given the precise timing of the
first four chapters, I'm pretty sure that Slughorn's acceptance of the
Potions position, which made Snape DADA teacher by default and
probably by previous arrangement, occurred at precisely the same
instant as the Unbreakable Vow, or at least the fateful third provision.

Sydney:
> 
> A Pensive memory of Hagrid, of course, is exactly what I have in
mind! JKR will let the question dangle for a *while*, but when she
wraps things up it's with a big bow, generally. <snip> And I don't see
how a Pensive memory lets Snape off the hook in terms of juicy
character torture, unless it's in terms of maybe opening a possibility
of him surving past the end of the book. Snape's hook isn't that he
can't prance about in sunny confidence that he'll be exhonorated
<snip>  It's that he killed him mentor and has to go make nice with
Voldemort and crawl around in a pit of despair.  I think that's enough
to be going on with!  

Carol:
I'm not sure that it's Hagrid's memory that we'll see in the Pensieve.
I can imagine Snape on trial and his memories presented in some new
way we haven't yet seen, so that Harry as witness and the judge and
jury could all see the evidence. Or Snape, having shown himself loyal,
explaining to Harry exactly what happened. 

At any rate, regardless of how it's done, we're going to see more of
the argument in the forest, a classic bit of misdirection on JKR's
part that has to be cleared up. And it has to fit in with the UV/Draco
plot somehow, whether or not it involved a prearranged plan for Snape
to kill DD "should it prove necessary."

I agree that no Pensieve memory, Hagrid's or Snape's or a bottled
memory of DD's, is going to ease Snape's anguish. It's Harry who'll
benefit by learning, finally, to understand Snape.

Carol, agreeing that Snape's pit of despair is more than enough to be
going on with!