ESE, DDM, OFH, or Grey? (WAS: DDM!Snape the definition)

[Jen Reese]

No: HPFGUIDX 162742

Sydney:  
> It seems to me we have good reason in canon to believe that the Vow
> led to Snape getting the DADA job, not the other way around: 
> -- Snape complains to Bellatrix that D-dore won't give him the job
> in Spinner's End.  Of course he could be concealing that he has it
> for some reason, but it would be public knowledge in a couple of
> weeks and then she'd know he'd lied about something.  

Jen: OK, I'm up for putting aside the DADA curse to explore other 
options and this sounds like a simple and straightforward rationale.  
It wouldn't matter if Snape was concealing though,  Bella would think 
he lied either way once she heard the news.

Sydney:
> I do dislike the idea, though, of their fates being forced by the
> DADA curse by actually *acting* on their personalities.  Lockhart 
> did what he would have done under the same circumstances with or 
> without the DADA curse.  And when JKR shows a character in the grip 
> of a personality-affecting enchantment, it tends to be visible and 
> you can see exactly when it kicks in.  It's sort of pointless 
> storytelling, IMO, if Lupin's wishy-washiness or Umbrige's control-
> freakery were 'boosted' or something by the curse and they weren't
> really responsible for them. I mean, what's the point of the whole
> character then?  

Jen:  I think the DADA could act on a person similar to Felix but 
with a negative outcome.  Harry's personality wasn't enhanced by 
Felix;  he was already the one with the right combination of traits 
to get the memory from Slughorn and Felix merely illuminated his 
way.  In contrast, the DADA curse would act on weaknesses or negative 
traits peculiar to each person so that a person sees the wrong path 
illuminated or chooses to overlook warning signs.  Having Felix show 
up in the same book as the Dada jinx might support this idea.  The 
problem with it is what you alluded to--wouldn't all the DADAs have 
made the same choices they made anyway?  

Sydney:
> -- Practical!Snape, who realizes that the only way Draco will not be
> killed by Voldemort is if Snape magically lashes the two of them
> together.  He knows Voldemort will definitely kill Draco (because
> that's just the sort of guy he is, plus the kill-Dumbledore thing
> isn't going to happen).  But now he can't without taking Snape with
> him (because that doesn't go with "protect Draco from all harm"). 
> This is actually also the only logical reason Narcissa would venture
> to ask him. <snip> 

> This has many good aspects.  It makes sense that there wouldn't be a
> reveal at this point because it can't be made too, too obvious that
> Snape is being heroic here, putting his life on the line for 
> somebody else (although it's already, IMO, pretty obvious 

Jen: Your idea has merit for Snape as a heroic guy but also a 
terribly naive one if he thinks Voldemort cares if he dies with Draco 
(if I'm understanding correctly).  Snape shouldn't be taking the UV 
to begin with, so when Snape lays out the UV as the reason for 
Voldemort not killing Draco, Voldemort will probably kill them both 
for failure and betrayal and not wait for the UV to kick in.  

If Voldemort really expects Snape to kill Dumbledore as his back-up 
plan then he pretty much expects Snape to die or go to Azkaban.  Not 
because he thinks Dumbledore will kill Snape, but because LV expects 
1) Someone around Dumbledore who never trusted Snape will do the deed 
or 2) Snape will fail and be captured by Aurors or 3) Snape won't be 
able to go through with it thus proving he's loyal to Dumbledore.   
Besides, Voldemort wouldn't believe anyone else is capable of killing 
Dumbledore if he himself hasn't suceeded.

Sydney:
> Actually, now that I've written that up, my favorite would be a
> mash-up suicidal!practical!Snape.  He takes the Vow for the above,
> 'protect Draco' reasons.  He doesn't hesitate because he doesn't 
> mind dying in the process-- you'd have to be a little suicidal any
> way you slice it to take a UV.  His hand jerks because the kill 
> Dumbledore part is a bad spanner in the works (plus he can't get 
> out of it because he's bound with snakes of fire by now), but he 
> continues coolly because he's thinking, "Oh well, at least I can
> teach DADA this year and then check out heroically not killing
> Dumbledore."  

Jen:  I definitely agree Snape doesn't care if he dies.  I'm not 
completely convinced you can't stop the Vow once in progress because 
we see Bella's 'astounded' face when Snape agrees to the final 
clause.  Maybe the two choices during the Vow are agreeing or 
dropping dead so Bella was surprised Snape didn't choose to drop 
dead.  I've also wondered if both people would drop dead if the Vow 
isn't completed, but discarded this idea since Bella didn't try to 
dissaude Narcissa at all.   

I'm still not seeing much of a motive for saying yes to the UV in the 
first place.  Snape's deep caring for Draco isn't that obvious if 
Narcissa needs a death vow to ensure he'll protect him.  And Snape is 
a fool if he trusts Narcissa won't add in a few extra tasks to the 
ones she's already mentioned (ACID POPS anyone, Snape acting the 
way 'fools who love' act?).  So to summarize, Narcissa went to Snape 
for help but doesn't trust Snape will live up to his word, and Snape 
can't say no to a death vow by two people who hold nothing over his 
head....what's up with these people?!?

*****************************************

One of my favorite theories that would change my outlook on the UV is 
if Voldemort was behind the Vow and Narcissa is lying during the 
first part of their conversation-- notice how she stares down at her 
hands when she arrives, she covers her face in her hands, she shuts 
her eyes when saying she is forbidden to talk about it.  Only when 
Snape says he knows the task does she start to look at him and talk 
about Draco.  She cries then and appears sincerely desperate, she 
only struck a bargain with Voldemort in order to help Draco after 
all, but all of her actions make it difficult for Snape to practice 
Legilimency on her.   The moment when he is gazing at her tear-filled 
blue eyes as she kneels before him is the moment they are in the 
closest contact and by then she's already asked for the Unbreakable.  
Possible explanations:  

1) Snape realized Narcissa betrayed him in the moment his face goes 
blank, before he agrees to the Vow.   He knows all her talk about 
being the 'favorite servant' was just flattery and untrue, something 
he already suspected since Peter was ordered to live with him.  So 
Snape thinks taking the Vow might help his status and further his 
double-agent work.  This explanation is a little iffy because Snape 
wouldn't know if his loyalty was being tested to take the Vow or 
refuse it unless he saw something in Narcissa's eyes.

2)  I don't know what would make him agree to the Vow in the first 
place, but perhaps Snape realized the betrayal the moment Narcissa 
uttered the third clause.  That's when Snape understood the trap was 
Voldemort's, that it's a test of his loyalty so he can't back out.   
Once again is the problem of 'why take the Vow in the first place?'  
Sigh.  

Jen R., who just read a quote by British actor Hugh Laurie who 
said, "Americans expect their heros to be morally good" and wondered 
if that's not the sum total of Snape, a character who's morally 
compromised but also capable of good deeds.