[HPforGrownups] Re: The UV (was ESE, DDM, OFH, or Grey?)

[puduhepa98 at aol.com]

No: HPFGUIDX 162734

>Magpie:
> If he needed that information why didn't he just let  Narcissa tell it to 
> him
> like she was going to before he himself  jumped in and said, "Don't tell 
> me?"
>
>  Nikkalmati:
>
> Because Bella was there. SS was taken by surprise by  the visit and he
> didn't know what Bella was doing there. Cissy was  obviously very upset 
> and he
> didn't want her to get reported to  LV as a traitor.

>Magpie:
>But Snape's goal was, I thought,  finding out what Draco's task is. I can 
understand him wanting to protect  Narcissa, but it still seems completely 
silly to have Snape literally shut  Narcissa up (instead of letting her go on 
for the second more it would take  for him to give him the basic idea) <snip>
 
Nikkalmati:
 
You are not looking at this in stages, which is how it happened.   Snape's 
immediate reaction when Cissy says "The Dark Lord has forbidden me to  speak of 
it" is to prevent her from getting herself into trouble and to appear  to be a 
loyal servant of LV in front of Bella.  If he had known the plan,  he would 
have said so immediately, instead of getting up to look out the window  before 
he makes his claim.



>Magpie:
But taking the Vow is supposed to be his way of  trying to find out what 
Draco's task is--which it still doesn't. (And  doesn't the Vow potentially 
fall under going against the wishes of the Dark  Lord more than Narcissa 
spilling the beans? It even implies it to LV  later.)
 
Nikkalmati:
 
Taking the vow to protect Draco puts him in a position to know all the  
details and to work against Draco in secret.  Narcissa certainly did not  know 
about the Cabinets or other details Snape would need to know.  (Please  no, not 
the Cabinets again!) and Snape was sure he could worm the task out of  Draco.  
The fact that it didn't work does not reflect on whether it made  sense at the 
time.  Circumstances intervened (read DADA curse?)  Yes,  the vow goes against 
the wishes of LV, but this time Bella is involved.   She can hardly report 
Cissy or Snape when she is the Binder in a vow whose basic  purpose is to thwart 
the Dark Lord's  purpose.   

>Magpie:
The Death Pact kind of  undermines any superficial protection he's gotten 
elsewhere,  though.
Nikkalmati
 
His initial purpose is to prevent Bella reporting treason to the Dark  Lord.  
He doesn't know at this point Cissy will ask for a UV.
 


>Magpie:
Right, I can see that part of the reading. But it  makes Snape's lines less 
meaningful because he's just faking it the whole  time, so the whole 
conversation carries less weight. 
 
Nikkalmati
Yes, I think he's lying the whole time.  I don't know what you mean by  less 
weight.
 
>Magpie
And he's still supposed to be taking the 
Vow to get information that  the Vow doesn't give him (so he winds up vowing 
to die if he doesn't do  something unknown to himself). 
 
Nikkalmati
 
He thought the Vow would put him in position to get all the information he  
needs from Draco.  He did not know he would end up vowing to do something  he 
doesn't know about.  I am convinced that he could not get out of Part #3  once 
he had started.  
 
>Magpie
>With the vow Snape isn't exactly proving that he follows  Voldemort's 
orders, 
just that he's anti-Dumbledore. In this case he's  proving something by 
agreeing to kill Dumbledore, but he's not following  Voldemort's orders, is 
he? As you say, they're all thwarting Voldemort's  plan.

Nikki:
> It is also not clear that Cissy knows exactly what  Draco is supposed to do
> either- only that it is likely to be outright  fatal or unsuccessful and
> therefore fatal.

Magpie:
So now  nobody knows what's actually going on? How sad. I read it as this 
really  dramatic scene where everyone (including me, even the first time 
reading)  knew that 16-year-old Draco Malfoy had been given the suicide 
mission of  trying to kill Dumbledore. Snape's thoughtfully realizing 
Voldemort wants  him (Snape) to do it in the end, Narcissa is rightfully 
frantic and seeing  it as an attempt to get Draco killed, Bellatrix is 
crazily claiming it's an  honor.

But really it's just a bunch of people who have the feeling  Voldemort has 
told Draco to do something--could be anything--and they're  running for help 
and taking Vows and accepting Vows without having any idea  what they're 
vowing about? But having a conversation that makes it seem like  they know 
they're going to talk about? What would Narcissa have said to  Snape if Snape 
hadn't shut her up if she doesn't know any more than he does?  What does she 
think "even the Dark Lord" can't do? (And how does Snape not  figure it out 
from that clue?)
>
Nikkalmati
 
Ok, Narcissa and Bella probably know Draco has been assigned to kill DD  
(although I have seen it speculated on list that Draco was not told that himself  
until later, that he initially thought he was only supposed to bring DE's into 
 the castle)
"Even the Dark Lord can't do" Yes, that is a big pointer, but I am not sure  
Snape has time to process it.  There are a lot of things LV can't do,  
including getting into Hogwarts and even more likely after GOF --  killing Harry 
Potter!.  Besides, if LV can't kill DD, how is Snape  supposed to do it "in the 
end?"  Maybe Snape is engaging in puffery  here.

>Magpie:
>But the Vow has nothing to do with any of this.  There's nothing in the Vow 
that gives Snape the information he's looking  for. The only way it would 
have done that would be if the Vow had to contain  specific language, like, 
"You will watch over Draco as he attempts to  fulfill the Dark Lord's wishes 
to [insert secret information]to [insert secret information]<WBR>." Snape'
confide in him didn't need the Vow. Since  Narcissa was about to tell him 
about the plan he could probably more easily  have sent them away and then 
just set up a secret meeting with her anyway.  Or just talk about how he was 
going to do this thing and get her to talk  about the details of the plans 
that way. Once Bellatrix thinks Snape knows  the plan there's no reason for 
anyone to worry about talking about it  openly.
 
Nikkalmati
 
The Vow doesn't tell him any information, but it sets him up with  Draco.  If 
Mommy just says to Draco "Work with Uncle Snape, Honey, and  everything will 
be all right,"
Snape can get all the details as Draco works  it out - details that Narcissa 
doesn't know. If he tries to pump Narcissa  Bella will smell a rat right away. 
 Anyway Narcissa doesn't know about the  necklace, the mead, the Cabinets, 
all that important stuff.  As to whether  the vow was necessary, it was not 
Snape's idea;  he wanted Narcissas'  cooperation. And yes, I know it didn't work 
out.   
 
>Magpie 
>I don't think an author would write Snape cutting  Narcissa off and then 
continuing on the conversation the way he does and  taking the Vow if he 
really didn't know what he was doing. I don't see any  beats in the scene the 
flag (as JKR would flag, imo) that Snape is actually  just speaking vaguely 
hoping what he's saying matches up with the  information he doesn't know. 
 
Nikkalmati
 
He turns to look out the window.  Why?  There is nothing out  there in the 
middle of the night.  Everything he says from Scholastic  hardback p 32 on is 
vague and based on comments Cissy and Bella have already  made.  
 
>Magpie.  
Plus I don't see any moment of shock and horror for  Snape when he realizes 
what he's agreed to do--a moment I don't think JKR  would hide from us if it 
happened, since it's Snape's tragic mistake. The  vagueness of the scene 
still reads more logically to me as three people who  know what they're 
talking about who are hiding it from the reader, not two  people who are 
pretending they know what they are talking  about.

Nikkalmati:
 
The twitch?


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