The UV (was ESE, DDM, OFH, or Grey?)

[sistermagpie]

No: HPFGUIDX 162811

> Hi Carol,
> Actually this discussion, as simple as it seems, makes me wonder 
(as 
> it often does) exactly how the rules of JKR's world work. The debt 
> that was created when Harry spared Wormtail seems to hinge on the 
> fact that Wormtail realizes how he has been spared. Can we say 
that 
> much of Draco? He is very good at re-writing events to suit 
himself 
> and he may well not recognize what Snape did in some many 
instances 
> as any sort of extrordinary actions (as Wormtail certainly did, 
> witness his fawning gratitude...). 

Magpie:
I think Snape's UV clearly doesn't create any sort of Life Debt for 
Draco any more than Harry's saving Ginny does for Ginny. It's not 
something that's technically explained, but I think the "feeling" of 
the situations is clearly defined. Snape feels indebted to James 
because he knows James hated him and had reason to hate him since 
Snape hated James too. Yet he knows James saved his life. Peter has 
the same situation with Harry.

With Malfoy--whom I think Snape did seem to like (Harry on the first 
day uses that exact expression to describe how Snape is with Malfoy, 
and in sixth year turns it around and says that Malfoy always seemed 
to like Snape too)--it's a different situation. Snape made a 
decision on his own to take the vow with Narcissa (not Draco) to 
protect her son, whom they both cared about, and without Draco's 
knowledge. As far as he was concerned he was just being given a task 
for him to do himself. He would never have wanted Snape to make the 
vow (unlike Snape and Peter who of course at the moment of being 
saved would have felt the relief).  

Technically, Draco pretty much keeps Snape from protecting him 
anyway in the way he expects. Snape does heal him in the bathroom 
and pulls him out at the end, but they're kind of tangential to 
specifically helping/watching over the task. Snape's not able to 
interfere with his plots, and when he kills Dumbledore himself he's 
not exactly doing what Malfoy wants. Someone has to do something, 
and Malfoy must know that, but Malfoy probably doesn't yet 
understand what Snape did. Snape the DE simply did the task Draco 
couldn't just as any other of those DEs would have done. He probably 
wouldn't realize at the time that Snape was primarily interested in 
protecting him, not killing Dumbledore for his own glory (assuming 
Snape is DDM). Malfoy's come to see he doesn't want this murder, so 
Snape coming in and doing it isn't the type of set up to create a 
debt. Even if Malfoy realizes it benefitted him--since he couldn't 
do it he would have most likely been killed--he has no reason to 
think of it yet as Snape saving him intentionally. We wouldn't want 
him to appreciate Snape for killing DD that way, because that would 
make him more of a DE himself.

Of course in the wider sense Snape has made huge sacrifices for 
Malfoy and he will hopefully come to appreciate just how much Snape 
has done for him. But that's a natural relationship issue that's 
just as Muggle as it is Wizard. Draco doesn't need a magical bond or 
something that feels like one, because Snape is genuinely part of 
his family (using the term loosely). It's like Sirius running off to 
the MoM to save Harry. Harry loves Sirius for it and loves Sirius 
anyway, so it's not reduced to debts and owing.

>From Snape's pov this might be important because of his history with 
the Potters. Narcissa's asking him to save her son might have pinged 
him as being like Lily, so may appeal to his guilt. But even apart 
from that I think there's possibly a reason the character was given 
people (especially one person, Draco) that he cares about. I don't 
think he'd see it as Draco owing him anything because adults protect 
children. It's counterintuitive for the grown characters in the book 
to be demanding debts from the minors, imo. So Harry doesn't feel 
indebted to Snape for saving him in PS (or just about anything!).

Jen D.
I guess what I am wondering really, do you think Draco appreciates
anything Snape has done for him to save him in various situations in
HPB and if that knowledge (again Draco is fully capable of not giving
a person his due)will somehow create any sort of alliance, however
tenuous.

Magpie:
I'm not sure where you're getting that specific trait of Draco's. 
What have we seen that would indicate that he'd be incapable of 
recognizing someone doing something for him or liking him?  Before 
HBP he seemed to me like a genuine Snape-fan. Draco's relationship 
in HBP I think follows easily along the lines of that. Draco is 
rebelling in that book, and rebelling against Snape because Snape is 
an important figure for him. I don't know how this will work out but 
it seems hard for me to believe that JKR would just completely 
rewind Draco post-HBP to that mode, which even Harry recognizes does 
not reflect his true feelings for Snape any more than Harry's anger 
at DD in OotP reflected his true feelings for him. Draco got his 
shot on his own, he didn't completely fail. If anything I'd say he's 
in more of a position to appreciate Snape than he was before. More 
able, that is, in terms of Draco being more mature. There's a lot of 
plot things to be worked out before they can really approach each 
other honestly.

-m