The Cabinet Plan...again (was:Re: The UV (was ESE, DDM, OFH, or Grey?)

[sistermagpie]

No: HPFGUIDX 162818


> > Betsy Hp:
> Also, I think you've got the gradations of the 
> > words wrong.  One can be a killer without being a murderer (a 
> > soldier, for example).  But one cannot be a murderer without 
being 
> a 
> > killer.  For someone to murder they've had to kill.
> 
> a_svirn:
> Yes. That's what makes Draco such a poor soldier for any cause, 
> Voldemort's or Dumbledore's alike. He has no objection to 
murdering 
> people so long that he doesn't have to do or witness actual 
killing. 
> Poisoning, plotting and planning for others to do the job – that's 
> more in his line. 

Magpie:
I think that's why Dumbledore can't be meaning what you are saying 
he means (and why I disagree with all interpretations that say that 
Draco didn't feel anything about Katie and Ron--if he almost-killed 
from a slight distance with no problem, I'd need more explanation as 
to why he couldn't kill Dumbledore). Dumbledore is throughout the 
scene, imo, saying that Draco did have a problem with murder, 
period. Poisoning and planning for others to do the job was not any 
more in his line than killing Dumbledore himself is--not because he 
didn't almost do just that, obviously, but because of the way it 
affected him. As a human being who is not a killer (in this case 
killer meaning someone who has no problem with killing) killing from 
a short distance was damaging to him too. If it wasn't I think he'd 
already be a killer in his heart and wouldn't be in the shape he's 
in on the Tower. And he'd probably kill Dumbledore.

> > Betsy Hp:
> > And yet, Draco proved himself well able to be Voldemort's 
hitman.  
> He 
> > had Dumbledore dead to rights. 
> 
> a_svirn:
> No, he didn't. He simply had an incredible and completely 
unforeseen 
> luck to find Dumbledore incapacitated. If it hadn't been for that 
he 
> wouldn't have been in a position to complete his assignment. 

Magpie:
It doesn't matter how he did it, he had him dead to rights and chose 
not to kill him. He was in the position to complete his assignment 
and knew it--and chose not to. Dumbledore's state was very lucky for 
Dumbledore in that sense, I think. Much easier for him to make the 
case he was trying to make to Draco, imo, while being so truly 
helpless. (Unlucky in other ways, obviously.)
 
> > Betsy Hp:
>  So Draco doesn't lower his wand 
> > because he's in a weak position.  That he's in a position of 
> > strength, a position that someone who *was* a killer could have 
> > operated quite comfortably from, is what makes Draco's lowered 
wand 
> > so powerful.  
> 
> a_svirn:
> It would have been powerful, if Draco *had* lowered his wand. But 
he 
> was in no hurry to do that. Dumbledore's offer was the answer to 
his 
> prayers, but, then, Draco had never dreamed to find him so weak. 
So 
> he hesitated. Tried to weigh the advantage of giving to Voldemort 
his 
> heart's desire against the disadvantage of being enslaved to the 
Dark 
> Lord for the rest of his life. That he started to lower his wand 
> gives credit to his intelligence, but not to his morals. 

Magpie:
I don't think we can count his morals out just yet--if it's just 
about his intelligence it's not just Draco who suffers, but 
Dumbledore. I don't think JKR would be interested in that kind of 
scene or choice. I agree with Betsy that Draco wasn't weighing the 
advantage when he went over having Dumbledore in his power. What 
he's going over underlines the fact that he's making his choice from 
a position of strength and actually giving up what he had valued so 
much before. Dumbledore was at his mercy, he'd proved himself more 
than anyone thought he would, and yet he would not have killed 
Dumbledore. Given the themes of the book I can't see that as a 
purely practical move-and I suspect the acceptence of Dumbledore's 
mercy specifically is important morally.

That's also why I don't make the decision between DDM!Snape and Grey!
Snape if Grey is used to distinguish between Snape and Harry, as if 
Harry is the prototype of DDM. If I was going to pick one of those 
two for what it "really" meant to be DDM, I'd pick Snape in a minute-
-and throughout the Tower scene with Draco I thought I was probably 
getting a lot of echoes of the way Dumbledore handled Snape. 

> Betsy Hp:
> Powerful enough that if effects Harry.

a_svirn:
How does it affect Harry? The best that can be said is that he pities
Draco.

Magpie:
He specifically thinks about the lowered wand afterwards, and I 
think that's tied in with the way his feelings towards Malfoy have 
changed even slightly. All Harry thinks at this point is that he 
feels "a drop of pity" mingled with the dislike but the lowered wand 
seems to be pretty important--and I don't think it's part of the 
pity. The pity is for Malfoy being made to do things because his 
family is in danger, but I don't know if Harry would feel even that 
if Malfoy hadn't shown him something positive by lowering his wand. 
I think it does mean something to Harry that Draco would not have 
killed Dumbledore.

Alla:

YES, a_svirn, yes, I think you nailed it. When I read Draco saying
that he did not think that Greyback come, I think I was saying at
first - yeah, right or laughing if I was not so upset with DD
situation.

What did you think, you twit? You knew that Greyback is one of them
and you did not think he would come. You acted as if he is a family
friend, whether or not it was completely true, it to me implies some
familiarity with this er.... man. And you did not think that he would
grasp an opportunity to go and have fun with kids? I mean Malfoy can
be stupid IMO but that stupid? I am not sure.

Magpie:
I don't think it's necessarily that stupid. I mean, obviously Fenrir 
is involved and Draco knows that perfectly well, but it doesn't seem 
odd he wouldn't think he was coming. It's not like Fenrir is some go-
to guy that's always at every DE thing,and if Draco thinks of him a 
savage he might never think he'd be sent on delicate operations. 
We've never even heard of him until now. Draco could know lots of 
DEs but still be surprised at any one of them appearing some place 
if he thought the group wouldn't include them. I don't think his 
being mentioned means that Draco must have known he was so likely to 
be there in Hogwarts. When he does show up it's not like Draco is 
completely shocked like, "What?  How could you possibly be doing 
here?" He sees, presumably, how Fenrir got involved, but can still 
be telling the truth when he says he didn't specifically want him 
and did not think he was going to be part of the group.

I mean, there's lots of things in canon where we could say "well, 
what did you expect?" but the characters often do seem to be 
surprised at the results.

-m