Grey!Snape and Character Growth (was:Voldemort's Plan for Snape & the Ring...

[Jen Reese]

No: HPFGUIDX 162839

> Betsy Hp:
> It's so funny because the man you describe just is not Snape to me;
> I don't recognize him at all.  (Which means, of course, that you
> must have the same reaction when *I* talk about Snape.  "Who is
> this strange creature Betsy's talking about?" <g>)  So I cannot 
> imagine that I'll change your mind.  (I'll leave that to JKR and 
> Book 7. <beg>)

Jen: Strangely, no, I see the version of Snape you guys see very 
clearly because when I closed HBP for the first time I read the same 
story.  I argued early on for DDM!Snape, pretty strongly if I 
remember <g>.

> Jen previous: While Dumbledore dealt in mercy and Voldemort in 
> savagery, Snape walked a tightrope between them engaging in neither
> one.

Betsy:
> But the other issue I have is that there's too much going on here.  
> There's not a "true" Snape in this scenario.  He's a little bit of 
> what Dumbledore sees, a little bit of what Voldemort sees, and a 
> little bit of what Harry sees, carefully walking a tightrope and 
> refusing to choose.  And the problem with that is it makes for a
> very poor "revelation".  You say there's no growth involved, but 
> there  must be.  Because even Snape doesn't know who he is until
> he's forced by circumstance to finally pick a personality.  And in
> picking that "true" Snape, Snape must change.  (Actually, I think
> you're stealing Draco's story and trying to stick it on Snape.)

Jen:  I didn't mean to imply that Snape and Dumbledore don't know who 
Snape is (I think that's what you meant?).  That's *why* the tower 
was successful, because only Dumbledore and Snape know the truth.
What I meant is that Snape is loyal to Dumbledore and allied to him, 
but he doesn't fully accept Dumbledore's love magic just as he didn't 
accept Voldemort's version.  I think the run across the grounds was 
one example, he still believes Harry must close his mind to defeat 
Voldemort and we know Harry must open his heart.  

But Snape *did* choose a path to be a double agent or 'dual person'. 
I mean, there's a reason Dumbledore has to proclaim his trust far and 
wide, right?  Yet we find out in HBP no one else really believed 
Snape which means he was a helluva double-agent in the end!  

The reason I don't see this making a poor revelation is because the 
loyalty revelation is *not* the biggest issue on the table to me 
regarding Snape.  Harry having an 'aha' moment about whose side Snape 
is on is just another Sirius moment--"I thought your were evil!  
You're on my side and what's more, we have a lot in common."  (More 
below)

> Betsy Hp:
> But... Harry's *already* seen that Snape is a lot like him on the 
> inside.  He's had two sneak attacks of "OMG, I'm relating to 
> SNAPE!" at current count.  Do you really think Harry's feeling 
> after the pensieve scene and his bonding with the half-blood Prince
> were examples of JKR spinning her wheels?

Jen: No, no!  I love these moments, as well as when Harry gets to see 
bits from Snape's childhood and likely when the Prank is revealed.  
It's just that I don't see them leading to the loyalty revelation, or 
leading there indirectly.  Like you, I see Snape as already redeemed, 
he's been redeeming himself for years and Harry will get that part 
*after* he gets the bigger deal.  Snape's role will actually be the 
biggest one for Harry's growth because when he can see Snape through 
Lily's and Dumbledore's eyes of compassion, he will finally 
understand the power he holds that Voldemort does not.  When he can 
truly feel empathy for the boy Snape was, what he lost, why he made 
the huge mistakes he did and his genuine feelings of remorse and 
pain, then Harry will understand he was loyal all along.

Even if you don't agree, maybe that's an urgh scenario for you <g>, 
that still fits the criteria for Harry learning from Snape, doesn't 
it?

> Betsy Hp:
> Exactly!  Which is why Snape needs to have been steadily on the
> good guys' side throughout the books.  Just as he was in PS/SS.
> Otherwise either he or Draco is a wasted character, one the faded 
> copy of the other.  (And since Draco's the one running around with
> the "bad faith" moniker, I'm betting on him being the one having to
> make a resolute choice.  You know, because of Sartre. <g>)

Jen: I guess I answered this one above for Draco, why I believe his 
revelation of loyalty will be the bigger one because Snape will be 
part of something else for Harry.