[HPforGrownups] The Cabinet Plan...again (was:Re: The UV (was ESE, DDM, OFH, or Grey?)

[Magpie]

No: HPFGUIDX 162845

> Alla:
>
> I am saying that cold canon facts IMO of course, you may disagree
> that they constitute cold canon facts contradict Dumbledore's
> asssesment very strongly.
>
> I do think that Dumbledore may have been deceiving Draco, somehow,
> yes and saying what Draco needed to hear, knowing that there is a
> chance that something in Draco may listen to DD.

Magpie:
I can't agree that Dumbledore was deceiving Draco at all--I think that whole 
scene was Dumbledore trying to get down to the real deal. Draco never makes 
a move to kill Dumbledore (which the text calls attention to numerous times 
through Draco's
physicality, the narrator's pov through Harry's eyes and through 
Dumbledore's dialogue), and Dumbledore never tries to trick, manipulate or 
pressure Draco into anything. He is, by narrative design, plot contrivance 
and his own choice of
how to speak, helpless.

That's another reason I can't agree with any reading of the mercy line where 
Dumbledore is basically using Voldeort's threat as his own. He's all about 
giving Draco a choice that he can accept or reject.

But regarding the "killer" thing, here's how I think it works. If we were 
talking about a real boy who had sent out poisoned wine and a bomb in the 
mail and they had hurt people who didn't die, and someone said, "But he's 
not a killer--they didn't die!" I think we'd all think that was crazy 
because we'd all be focused on the danger the boy posed. So what if his
attempts didn't actually succeed because there happened to be a doctor 
present at the time? The actions he took were intentionally deadly and had a
very good chance of killing people. So we can't dismiss them because they 
didn't work.

But within the book, I don't think you can blur those two things (attempted 
murderer and murderer) together that way. Death, in this universe, is one of
those things of great importance and magical metaphor. Besides the main 
monster villain fearing death and chasing immortality, we've got Thestrals
that you can't see until you have seen death. Iow, seeing death literally 
changes your view of the world. You can see things that were literally not 
there before. And in every book up until VI there's some reference for Draco 
Malfoy in particular not relating to death as real.

If seeing death (in the symbolic way Rowling means it--the death of Harry's 
parents don't count because he's not old enough to comprehend it at all yet) 
causes a literal change of vision, causing death is an even bigger deal, 
imo. That's why Harry can't just walk away from the bathroom secure in the 
knowledge he was defending himself. He was, but almost killing someone is 
still freaky.

And that's more where Draco is at the end of the book. He's almost killed 
with Katie and Ron, and that's made death start to be more real. But he has
not actually caused the death of another person yet. (JKR was careful to not 
let Ginny do that either, even under possession. Her young age, combined 
with the possession and lack of deaths means Ginny can be just as 
Thestral-blind and whole as ever at this point. She can get a little muddy 
about Harry seeing Thestrals only at the beginning of fifth year, but I 
don't think she'd want to be fuzzy on this.) His soul is whole.

SSSusan:
(Unless you would actually argue that Draco sabotaged himself in his first 
two schemes and tried not to succeed?)

Magie:
Just wanted to throw in that that is what Dumbledore also says, that Draco 
was indeed trying not to succeed with his first two schemes.

SSSusan:
Interesting comparison to Sirius and the prank re: the issue of guilt.  I 
think what you're suggesting is that, not having the action actually result 
in lasting harm might free a person from feeling much guilt?  Or perhaps 
that if the action had had deathly consequences, then the guilt might have 
appeared?  So, since Ron, Katie & DD were all okay at this point, perhaps 
Draco isn't feeling all that much guilt.  Or (heh) am I just way off what 
you're suggesting?

Magpie:
Actually, he may be feeling guilt. We don't get a clear analysis of that 
aspect of Draco's feelings but by the time he gets to the Tower Dumbledore 
is confident that he doesn't want to kill. It seems like that logically is 
coming out of his previous attempts--when he was clueless about death and 
murder he was able to make the attempts, even if they were feeble. But after 
two near-deaths he can't even attempt it. So whether or not guilt is the 
main idea here, I think those attempts were negative for him in some way 
enough to contribute to his inability to make any more. (Fixing the Cabinet 
not being actual murder.)

SSSsusan:
The guilt you perceive or suspect in Draco, do you think is it over what 
happened/almost happened to Katie & Ron, or over what he tried/almost did do 
to DD?

Magpie:
I think I'd say the guilt, if that's what we call it, as about nearly 
murdering someone. So his negative reaction to Ron and Katie almost dying is 
bound up in his negative reactions to trying to kill Dumbledore. His earlier 
attempts may have had Dumbledore in mind, but Ron and Katie were the people 
he hurt. When he gets to the Tower he doesn't want to kill anyone.

-m