Harry Forgiving Snape / Grey!Snape and Character Growth

[Jen Reese]

No: HPFGUIDX 162900

> Betsy Hp:
> I *think* I'm starting to understand your view point here. You want
> a Snape that is only nominally loyal probably for a technical
> reason, but is still at heart a really evil nasty guy. That way
> when Harry forgives him, Harry *really* forgives him. Is that it?

Jen: If nominally loyal means anything less than Snape embracing 
Dumbledore's philosophy and his cause when he switched sides, then 
that's what I'm saying <g>.  Although I'm not certain what other 
people see as the cause?  I'm with Snape being 100% against Voldemort 
as Bart phrased it, I would just say his reasons are 100% personal 
and 0% political i.e., not caring whether people like Voldemort 
flourish again.

Betsy: 
> I have some problems with that Snape.  And with that Harry, for 
> that matter.  Harry isn't that loving a boy.  I don't think he has
> it in him to forgive Snape *unless* Snape is unabashedly DDM.  Only
> that large of a shock (and it would be a massive shock for Harry)
> could possibly shake Harry out of his confidence in his current 
> method of judging good people from bad.

Jen: I'm much more confident about my reading of Harry's trajectory 
than Snape's, so most of the time when analyzing Snape I'm trying to 
fit him around Harry's story.  In this case, Harry doesn't have to be 
a perfectly loving boy to defeat Voldemort, he just can't be like 
Snape in allowing hatred and vengeance to overcome him and guide his 
actions.  That's why I don't see the loyalty issue alone causing a 
dramatic *change* in Harry even if it's a shock. He operates like 
Snape when it comes to judging Snape in particular, so the only way 
to change that pattern is to realize Snape's modus operandi is wrong 
and likely forged out of incredible pain along the way.  That's why 
Harry learning the missing parts of Snape's (and Lily's) story will 
be so crucial for Harry's internal change.

> Betsy Hp:
> I think Snape's involvement in the killing of Harry's parents is 
> enough to be going on with.  If Snape is honestly responsible for 
> the circumstances that ended with Dumbledore's death (IOWs, the
> choice to make the UV, etc.) then I don't see Harry ever forgiving
> that.  Instead, Harry's hate will only grow stronger.

Jen: Right, I predict when Harry learns the full contents of the UV 
it will be another 'proof' for his hatred of Snape and anger at 
Dumbledore for trusting him.  He'll feel that way even if Hermione or 
someone has started to piece together what happened on the tower and 
Harry realizes things were not exactly as they seemed.  

> Betsy Hp:
> But if Snape really did kill Dumbledore, or if Dumbledore had to
> die because of a choice *Snape* made, Harry will not show him
> mercy.  I've seen nothing in the books to suggest Harry has that
> sort of ability.  Oh sure, he'd probably give Snape a quick death
> (or, more likely a fair trial, if Harry can swing it) but
> forgiveness?  Not our Harry. <g>

Jen:  I don't think it ends with Harry finding out about the UV.  He 
won't be capable of forgiving at that point, but he is capable of 
guilt and will blame himself for his part in weakening Dumbledore 
that night.  Putting two and two together he will understand there 
may have been a different outcome if he and Dumbledore had not gone 
to the cave or if he had not followed orders to feed him the potion.  
It's likely something Snape holds against Harry, too!  I see Harry's 
forgiveness coming to him in waves--the loyalty piece, learning about 
and identifying with Lily, hearing Snape's full story about how he 
came to be a DE (likely tragic) and finding he has some compassion 
for him instead of hatred.

Actually, Snape blaming Harry for weakening Dumbledore is a perfect 
exmple of what Harry has to grow beyond to defeat Voldemort.  I 
expect Snape's remorse for turning over the prophecy was because LV 
targeted someone he loved or respected, but he doesn't blame himself 
for the Potters dying, that's James' fault for putting his trust in 
his friends.  *James* made Snape culpable.  In the situation with 
Dumbledore, Snape feels pain that he had to kill Dumbledore, but he 
will likely blame others for putting him into that position: Harry 
for weakening Dumbledore, Draco for being stupid enough to actually 
work with Voldemort and/or actually trying to kill Dumbledore, and 
Bella and/or Narcissa for the UV.  *They* made Snape culpable. 

Jen R.