Harry Forgiving Snape / Grey!Snape and Character Growth

[horridporrid03]

No: HPFGUIDX 162915

> >>Betsy Hp:
> > I *think* I'm starting to understand your view point here. You   
> > want a Snape that is only nominally loyal...
> > <snip>

> >>Jen: If nominally loyal means anything less than Snape embracing 
> Dumbledore's philosophy and his cause when he switched sides, then 
> that's what I'm saying <g>. Although I'm not certain what other 
> people see as the cause?

Betsy Hp:
I see Dumbledore's cause as the total defeat of Voldemort and a WW 
not governed by fear.  I see Dumbledore's philosophy being a general 
sense of everyone having worth no matter species or bloodline.  And I 
do think Snape embraced both Dumbledore's cause and philosophy when 
he switched sides.  

I was going to say that Snape did so wholeheartedly, but I'm betting 
he judges those who've made mistakes (including himself) a bit more 
fiercely than Dumbledore.  And I'm betting it's much harder for Snape 
to forgive.  IOWs, I don't think Dumbledore's philosophy comes 
naturally to Snape.  But I think he tries really hard. <g>

> >>Jen:
> I'm with Snape being 100% against Voldemort as Bart phrased it, I   
> would just say his reasons are 100% personal and 0% political i.e., 
> not caring whether people like Voldemort flourish again.

Betsy Hp:
Hmm, no I disagree with that.  I think Snape cares a great deal that 
people like Voldemort not flourish again.  In fact, I'm betting 
that's the easiest part of Dumbledore's philosophy for Snape to 
embrace.  He'd easily get the idea that power corrupts, etc., etc.  
And since Snape doesn't do things by halves, he'd never want another 
potential tyrant rearing up again.

> >>Jen: I'm much more confident about my reading of Harry's         
> trajectory than Snape's, so most of the time when analyzing Snape  
> I'm trying to fit him around Harry's story.  In this case, Harry   
> doesn't have to be a perfectly loving boy to defeat Voldemort, he   
> just can't be like Snape in allowing hatred and vengeance to        
> overcome him and guide his actions.

Betsy Hp:
Okay, we're *almost* agreeing here.  Only, I think it's *young*!Snape 
that Harry is in danger of becoming like, and I think *Snape himself* 
is worried about Harry making the same mistakes of his youth.  (Hence 
the "fools who wear their emotions on their sleeves" stuff.)  The way 
Harry wraps himself in his hatred of Snape is how I'm betting Snape 
wrapped himself in his hatred of James.  And that's what made him 
such ripe pickings for Voldemort.  And that's what Snape is trying to 
teach Harry to avoid.

> >>Jen:
> That's why I don't see the loyalty issue alone causing a dramatic   
> *change* in Harry even if it's a shock. He operates like Snape when 
> it comes to judging Snape in particular, so the only way to change 
> that pattern is to realize Snape's modus operandi is wrong and      
> likely forged out of incredible pain along the way.  That's why    
> Harry learning the missing parts of Snape's (and Lily's) story will 
> be so crucial for Harry's internal change.

Betsy Hp:
Again, I agree with this.  But I think Harry will learn this lesson 
by seeing the great mistake young!Snape made, and the incredibly 
painful path Snape has been on to makeup for that mistake.  IOWs, I 
think Harry will learn of Snape's road of redemption at a moment when 
Harry himself is teetering in a bad direction. 

> >>Jen:
> <snip>
> Actually, Snape blaming Harry for weakening Dumbledore is a perfect 
> exmple of what Harry has to grow beyond to defeat Voldemort.  I 
> expect Snape's remorse for turning over the prophecy was because LV 
> targeted someone he loved or respected, but he doesn't blame        
> himself for the Potters dying, that's James' fault for putting his 
> trust in his friends.  *James* made Snape culpable.  In the         
> situation with Dumbledore, Snape feels pain that he had to kill    
> Dumbledore, but he will likely blame others for putting him into   
> that position: Harry for weakening Dumbledore, Draco for being     
> stupid enough to actually work with Voldemort and/or actually       
> trying to kill Dumbledore, and Bella and/or Narcissa for the UV.    
> *They* made Snape culpable. 
> <snip>

Betsy Hp:
Eh, yeah, I totally disagree with this idea.  I think Snape takes the 
blame for his past mistakes *fully* onto his own shoulders.  I do 
think he's furious at James for not listening to him, but I don't 
think he uses that anger as an excuse to shift the blame to James.  
Otherwise I don't think Dumbledore would give as much weight to 
Snape's remorse, since blaming someone else doesn't really count as 
remorse.  (Actually, if anything, I'd bet Snape takes *too* much onto 
his shoulders.)

But yeah, I don't see Snape blaming Harry (or Draco) for Dumbledore's 
death.  He's just not a character I see scrambling to find someone 
else to blame for his own mistakes.  That'd be Pettigrew.

(Though, I'm not all that sure Snape actually killed Dumbledore in 
the end anyway.)

Betsy Hp