Harry Forgiving Snape / Grey!Snape and Character Growth

[cubfanbudwoman]

No: HPFGUIDX 162930

In 162899, Carol wrote:
>>> I absolutely agree that Harry will need to see and understand 
Snape's struggle as a step toward defeating Voldemort through Love. 
What I don't see is what you don't talk about here, a struggle on 
Snape's part with his loyalty to Dumbledore. He's already sacrificed
everything he had for Dumbledore. He's not going to change sides
now--especially not if Harry has to understand that Snape is already
redeemed and on Dumbledore's side.

Aside from that, I guess you're rejecting the DDM!Snape label because
it relates only to Snape's loyalty. But as Magpie recently pointed
out, Snape's loyalty to Dumbledore is very important. It's a personal
loyalty to the only man who trusted him, the only man he could come to
for help when he wanted to change sides. Snape's loyalty to Dumbledore
and Dumbledore's (fully merited) trust in him is the crux of the
matter. Until Harry understands that the murder of Dumbledore was,
paradoxically, an act of extreme loyalty to Dumbledore, not
self-preservation but self-sacrifice (not of Snape's life but of
everything that was meaningful and comfortable in his life), then he
can't forgive Snape. He can't see all the other things that you're
calling Grey!Snape." <<<


SSSusan:
Absolutely Snape's loyalty is important.  But see, I think the way 
you've presented this makes the issue of Grey!Snape too Snape-
centered, whereas from what I've seen Jen has been talking 
specifically about the potential evolution of the story from Harry's 
position.  So it's not that the loyalty issue isn't important -- 
heck, it's VITAL! -- but it's just that, in this view, it's not *all* 
that will matter.  Because what matters is what it will be necessary 
for *Harry* to understand.  IOW, discovering in some unable-to-be-
disputed manner that Snape's loyalty truly was/is to DD, even in the 
moment that he killed him, will not be *all* there is to Harry's task 
regarding Snape.  More below on why that is....


Betsy wrote:
>>> I have some problems with that Snape. And with that Harry, for
that matter. Harry isn't that loving a boy. I don't think he has
it in him to forgive Snape *unless* Snape is unabashedly DDM. Only
that large of a shock (and it would be a massive shock for Harry)
could possibly shake Harry out of his confidence in his current
method of judging good people from bad. <<<

Jen responded: 
>>> I'm much more confident about my reading of Harry's trajectory
than Snape's, so most of the time when analyzing Snape I'm trying to
fit him around Harry's story. In this case, Harry doesn't have to be
a perfectly loving boy to defeat Voldemort, he just can't be like
Snape in allowing hatred and vengeance to overcome him and guide his
actions. That's why I don't see the loyalty issue alone causing a
dramatic *change* in Harry even if it's a shock. He operates like
Snape when it comes to judging Snape in particular, so the only way
to change that pattern is to realize Snape's modus operandi is wrong
and likely forged out of incredible pain along the way. That's why
Harry learning the missing parts of Snape's (and Lily's) story will
be so crucial for Harry's internal change. <<<


SSSusan:
I think you're right, Betsy, that Harry wouldn't have it in himself 
to forgive Snape unless Snape is unabashedly DDM.  And I think the 
discovery of that position (DDM) will be a shock indeed to Harry.  
Where there is disagreement, I think, is:  1) in the degree of shock 
that people think this will bring to Harry; and 2) in whether people 
think this *alone* will be enough to change Harry's view of/reaction 
to/willingness to work with/even interest in forgiving Snape.  

For some people, I think we're hearing that they think that #1 will 
be huge and that it will be enough to make #2 happen.  For Jen (and 
for me), I think what's being said is that #1 will be the *catalyst* 
for the rest of the work that Harry will need to do re: Snape.  

As others have mentioned in another current thread, the hatred that 
Harry feels towards Snape isn't only contrary to the Love that DD has 
told him is vital to Harry's power; it's that it's actually an 
*impediment* to the process of defeating Voldy.  As long as Harry 
contains such rage, hatred & anger towards anyone, will he be able to 
tap into Love as he needs to? will he be able to focus on the task of 
defeating Voldy?  If one believes the answer to that is "no," then 
Harry will have to deal with that hatred fully, and I'm not sure 
*only* discovering Snape is truly loyal to DD (and has been for some 
time) will be enough by itself.

So I agree with Jen that the loyalty issue -- the discovery of 
Snape's true loyalty to DD -- will serve as a *catalyst* for Harry in 
beginning the process of reviewing all that "other stuff" that he 
holds against Snape.  I definitely do NOT think that Harry yet 
understands all of "that stuff," knows all he needs to know about 
it.  Rather, he has incredible rage against Snape, not just for DD's 
death, but for 6 years' accumulation of incidences:  for what he sees 
as Snape's goading of Sirius, contributing to Sirius' death; for 
Snape's part in revealing the prophecy to Voldy & leading him to his 
parents; for quitting the Occlumency lessons; for continually seeing 
his dad in him, when he's *not* James; etc.  And if he finds out 
about the UV and Snape's role in "helping" Draco, he'll feel even 
more rage!  

Snape may well be ultimately loyal to DD and fighting truly against 
Voldemort (I believe it to be so), but he has done some horrible 
things; he has made some awful choices; he has caused some damage 
along the way.  Some fans are ready to explain all this away because 
of "extenuating circumstances" or as irrelevant because loyalty is 
what matters in the end or whatever.  I don't agree with that, but 
even if I did, that's Snape-centric.  I think what Jen is suggesting, 
and I agree with her, is that there's a lot more to Snape than JUST 
the loyalty issue, and there is a lot there that HARRY would need to 
get over in order to listen to this man, to trust this man, to work 
with this man.  Snape's actions have appeared Grey many times; 
they've arguably *been* Grey many times [joining the DEs, providing 
the info on the prophecy to Voldy, taking the UV].  Harry will need 
SOMETHING to start the process going of *considering* The Whole of 
Snape – who he is, who he has been, the choices he has made – and 
likely the loyalty issue will be that catalyst.  

Some don't think it's necessary for Harry to understand all of 
this "Snape Stuff" and think that learning about his true loyalty 
will be enough for Harry to move on with Snape, but I think that he 
will need to reflect on it, does need to come to terms with a lot of 
it, even, yes, needs to forgive Snape, before he can get on with the 
real task at hand.

I think the notion that discovering the loyalty *alone* won't be 
enough for Harry, as well as the fact that Snape's had some large 
measure of Greyness in his life/past (even if his present loyalty 
isn't in question!), is why there's a preference for some in thinking 
of it as a Grey!Snape issue, rather than "just" a DDM!Snape issue.  

In summary, as Jen wrote:
>>> I see Harry's forgiveness coming to him in waves--the loyalty 
piece, learning about and identifying with Lily, hearing Snape's full 
story about how he came to be a DE (likely tragic) and finding he has 
some compassion for him instead of hatred.<<<

SSSusan:
Yeah.  What she said. <g>

Siriusly Snapey Susan, DDM!Snaper through and through but also an 
appreciator of the need for *Harry* to deal with Grey!Snape!