Harry Forgiving Snape / Grey!Snape and Character Growth

[justcarol67]

No: HPFGUIDX 162934

Carol earlier:
> >>> I absolutely agree that Harry will need to see and understand 
> Snape's struggle as a step toward defeating Voldemort through Love. 
> What I don't see is what you don't talk about here, a struggle on 
> Snape's part with his loyalty to Dumbledore. He's already sacrificed
> everything he had for Dumbledore. He's not going to change sides
> now--especially not if Harry has to understand that Snape is already
> redeemed and on Dumbledore's side.
> 
> Aside from that, I guess you're rejecting the DDM!Snape label
because it relates only to Snape's loyalty. But as Magpie recently
pointed out, Snape's loyalty to Dumbledore is very important. It's a
personal loyalty to the only man who trusted him, the only man he
could come to for help when he wanted to change sides. Snape's loyalty
to Dumbledore and Dumbledore's (fully merited) trust in him is the
crux of the matter. Until Harry understands that the murder of
Dumbledore was, paradoxically, an act of extreme loyalty to
Dumbledore, not self-preservation but self-sacrifice (not of Snape's
life but of everything that was meaningful and comfortable in his
life), then he can't forgive Snape. He can't see all the other things
that you're calling Grey!Snape." <<<
> 
> 
> SSSusan:
> Absolutely Snape's loyalty is important.  But see, I think the way 
> you've presented this makes the issue of Grey!Snape too Snape-
> centered, whereas from what I've seen Jen has been talking 
> specifically about the potential evolution of the story from Harry's 
> position.  So it's not that the loyalty issue isn't important -- 
> heck, it's VITAL! -- but it's just that, in this view, it's not
*all* that will matter.  Because what matters is what it will be
necessary for *Harry* to understand.  IOW, discovering in some
unable-to-be-disputed manner that Snape's loyalty truly was/is to DD,
even in the moment that he killed him, will not be *all* there is to
Harry's task regarding Snape.  <snip>

> As others have mentioned in another current thread, the hatred that
Harry feels towards Snape isn't only contrary to the Love that DD has
told him is vital to Harry's power; it's that it's actually an 
*impediment* to the process of defeating Voldy.  As long as Harry 
contains such rage, hatred & anger towards anyone, will he be able to
tap into Love as he needs to? will he be able to focus on the task of
defeating Voldy?  If one believes the answer to that is "no," then 
Harry will have to deal with that hatred fully, and I'm not sure
*only* discovering Snape is truly loyal to DD (and has been for some
time) will be enough by itself.
> 
> So I agree with Jen that the loyalty issue -- the discovery of 
> Snape's true loyalty to DD -- will serve as a *catalyst* for Harry
in beginning the process of reviewing all that "other stuff" that he 
> holds against Snape.  I definitely do NOT think that Harry yet 
> understands all of "that stuff," knows all he needs to know about 
> it.  Rather, he has incredible rage against Snape, not just for DD's 
> death, but for 6 years' accumulation of incidences:  for what he
sees as Snape's goading of Sirius, contributing to Sirius' death; for 
> Snape's part in revealing the prophecy to Voldy & leading him to his 
> parents; for quitting the Occlumency lessons; for continually seeing 
> his dad in him, when he's *not* James; etc.  And if he finds out 
> about the UV and Snape's role in "helping" Draco, he'll feel even 
> more rage!  <snip> Harry will need SOMETHING to start the process
going of *considering* The Whole of Snape – who he is, who he has
been, the choices he has made – and likely the loyalty issue will be
that catalyst.  <snip>

> I think the notion that discovering the loyalty *alone* won't be 
> enough for Harry, as well as the fact that Snape's had some large 
> measure of Greyness in his life/past (even if his present loyalty 
> isn't in question!), is why there's a preference for some in
thinking of it as a Grey!Snape issue, rather than "just" a DDM!Snape
issue.  
> 
> In summary, as Jen wrote:
> >>> I see Harry's forgiveness coming to him in waves--the loyalty 
> piece, learning about and identifying with Lily, hearing Snape's
full story about how he came to be a DE (likely tragic) and finding he
has some compassion for him instead of hatred.<<<
> 
> SSSusan:
> Yeah.  What she said. <g>
> 
> Siriusly Snapey Susan, DDM!Snaper through and through but also an 
> appreciator of the need for *Harry* to deal with Grey!Snape!
>

Carol responds:
Here's the problem for me, then. I actually agree with almost
everything you say (I don't think that Harry cares one iota about the
dropped Occlumency lessons--he just wants something else to blame on
Snape--but that's a quibble. Also, Harry's resentment of Snape for
supposedly contributing to Sirius Black's death is an imaginary
grievance that Harry no longer needs now that he has real grievances:
the eavesdropping and the tower). But aside from that, I'm not
disputing anything you and Jen are saying about Snape's past or
Harry's resentment of Snape--except for Jen's contention that Snape is
feeling doubts about his loyalty to Dumbledore. *That* I disagree with
emphatically. (And I'm not sold on Lily's supposed compassion toward
Severus when they were kids, either, but again, that's a quibble.)

But what I'm talking about here is the *labels.* When we use a label
like DDM!Snape, we're not talking about Harry or what Harry will have
to get past to understand the complex person that is Snape, including
his remorse, his suffering, his loyalty, etc. When we use the
DDM!Snape label on this list, we're talking about Snape, and the key
question is where Snape's loyalties lie. DDM!Snape as a label
*assumes* real remorse, whether it's based on Lily or the life debt or
the simple realization that Voldemort was ready to murder an infant to
thwart the Prophecy. 

Grey!Snape takes the focus away from that central bond of merited
trust on Dumbledore's part and remorse for GH/loyalty to Dumbledore on
Snape's, with those interrelated and inseparable emotions as the
motivating factor for most if not all of Snape's actions, even his
attitude toward Harry, whose very existence reminds him of his failure
to save the Potters. The label Grey!Snape assumes that he's now *in
doubt* about his loyalty to Dumbledore because Dumbledore "made" him
cast that AK and rejoin the Death Eaters. For me, Snape's loyalty to
DD is not in doubt, nor is his willingness to take responsibility for
his own actions, most notably the UV and the killing of Dumbledore. He
has sacrificed everything *for* DD and is not about to go back on that
loyalty, any more than he's going to stop feeling remorse for Godric's
Hollow, which is his motivation for helping and protecting Harry. He
won't be tempted for a moment to *really* join Voldemort's side even
though he's facing death or Azkaban already. He'll do what he has to
do to help Harry, regardless.

Now, granted, all that is going to be very hard to get across to
Harry, and Harry will have to see Snape from the ground up, so to
speak, to understand how the boy he actually *liked* via the notes in
his Potions book and *pitied* via the Pensieve scene in OoP became the
teacher he hates, not to mention the DE who revealed the Prophecy to
Voldemort and was therefore indirectly responsible for his parents'
death (in contrast to the more direct responsibility of Wormtail, and,
especially, Voldemort). He'll have to learn the *real* reason that
Snape changed sides (which DD has conceled from him and JKR from us)
and realize how badly he's distorted the facts trying to make his
interpretation of Snape fit what DD has told him about Snape's
remorse. He'll have to fit together Snape's actions throughout their
years together at Hogwarts with his actions on the tower, which now
look (to Harry) like betrayal and murder. And *of course* Harry's rage
and hatred of Snape are an impediment to him in fighting Voldemort.
I've always said that. He *must* overcome his desire for revenge;
ergo, he *must* forgive Snape. IOW, I agree with both of you regarding
Snape and Harry. Or, sorry. Make that Harry and Snape. I do tend to be
Snapecentric. :-)

But none of that has anything to do with the *labels* we use on this
list. DDM!Snape, shorthand for a Snape loyal to Dumbledore, does not
deny any of this background, any of the complexity of Snape's motives
for joining the DEs and then turning to Dumbledore and especially not
his remorse for Godric's Hollow, which is his central motive with
regard to *Harry.* Gray!Snape confuses the issue and makes his
loyalties questionable. It isn't straightforward and clear like DDM!,
OFH!, or ESE! I suppose we could call him Remorseful!Snape, but
DDM!Snape already implies remorse. And Grey!Snape suggests that, in
losing his loyalty to Dumbledore, he's lost that remorse, too. That is
far, very far, from my view of Snape, who is steadfast in his
loyalties and his goals, which are tied in with his remorse for
Godric's Hollow and his unending attempts to atone for his failure to
save the Potters after having revealed the Prophecy to Voldemort.

So, since I think that Snape's loyalties are with Dumbledore, even
with DD dead, that DD's trust in him was merited, that Snape is
absolutely opposed to Voldemort and dedicated to his downfall, and
that he is steeped in remorse which, paradoxically, makes him hate
Harry, I intend to keep using the label DDM!Snape to make clear which
Snape I believe in. And that *is* the Snape that Harry will need to
see eventually, starting, perhaps, with Teen!Severus, who was neither
a DE nor Dumbledore's man

Carol, agreeing with virtually everything SSS said in her post but not
with the label Grey!Snape, which implies a questioning of loyalties
*after* the events on the tower