[HPforGrownups] Re: Harry Forgiving Snape / Grey!Snape and Character Growth

[elfundeb]

No: HPFGUIDX 162943

Jen:
Yes, it's true, I'm putting a stake in Grey!Snape as a possible theory
from my perspective. There are too many problems with him as others
have pointed out and when you find yourself convincing no one after two
weeks, the word delusional starts to creep into your brain <g>.

Debbie:
Oh, dear, it seems to be time for concession speeches.  I think I more or
less made my speech a week ago when I conceded that my incarnation of
Grey!Snape was a DDM! variant.  But even though we end up in the same place
(unquestionably so in relation to Harry), I'm still viewing Snape from a
slightly different angle than most of the DDM!Snapers, so let me try to
explain.

 Carol:
> The label Grey!Snape assumes that he's now *in doubt* about his
> loyalty to Dumbledore because Dumbledore "made" him cast that AK
> and rejoin the Death Eaters. For me, Snape's loyalty to DD is not
> in doubt, nor is his willingness to take responsibility for his own
> actions, most notably the UV and the killing of Dumbledore.

SSSusan:
Now, see, I didn't think this was at all what Jen was contending in
her Grey!Snape posts! It may be that that's part of what Debbie
believes, but in my reading, I've not seen Jen saying she believes
Snape is wavering in loyalty *now.* I'll leave this to others.

Debbie:
Yes, this is my version.  In my conception, Grey! is all about Snape and not
about where Harry needs to get to in relation to Snape in order to defeat
Voldemort.  I don't have any problems with Harry's need to let go of his
hatred for Snape.

Carol:
Anyway, I think that Snape's moment of decision is long past. He's
been acting for Dumbledore and against Voldemort, protecting and
trying to teach Harry while nevertheless hating him, walking a
tightrope not in the sense of conflicting loyalties but in the sense
of being in constant danger of exposure and death, since about the
time Harry was born and Snape realized how Voldemort interpreted the
Prophecy.

Debbie:
I don't disagree at all that Snape has been DDM! all these years, though I
also think Snape relishes the double-agent tightrope, and thinks he's damn
good at it (which would be consistent with OFH!Snape, a theory that I have
flirted with in the past).  And he relishes protecting Harry for other
reasons, one of which is self-flagellation for his long-ago indiscretion in
joining the DEs and setting in motion the demise of Harry's parents.
Carol:
So, since I think that Snape's loyalties are with Dumbledore, even
with DD dead, that DD's trust in him was merited, that Snape is
absolutely opposed to Voldemort and dedicated to his downfall, and
that he is steeped in remorse which, paradoxically, makes him hate
Harry, I intend to keep using the label DDM!Snape to make clear which
Snape I believe in. And that *is* the Snape that Harry will need to
see eventually, starting, perhaps, with Teen!Severus, who was neither
a DE nor Dumbledore's man

Debbie:
I agree with 99.9% of this.  I believe that Snape will prove to be DDM!,
that Dumbledore's trust in him will prove to be merited, that Snape is no
ally of Voldemort and is steeped in remorse for the events in Godric's
Hollow.  And y'all have succeeded in convincing me that since this is
*Harry's* story, not Snape's, it's not really likely that we'll see his
torment.

Yet, I see Snape seething with rage out there beyond the Hogwarts gates.  In
spite of the UV, he hoped to avoid having to kill Dumbledore, and thought he
could pull it off right up until he arrived at the top of the Tower.  This
is my Grey! starting point.

Carol:
Anyway, I think that Snape's moment of decision is long past. He's
been acting for Dumbledore and against Voldemort, protecting and
trying to teach Harry while nevertheless hating him, walking a
tightrope not in the sense of conflicting loyalties but in the sense
of being in constant danger of exposure and death, since about the
time Harry was born and Snape realized how Voldemort interpreted the
Prophecy.


Debbie:
Where I'm coming from is this:  Crises are catalysts that prompt us, as
humans (er, maybe I'm just speaking for myself), to examine how we got into
the mess we're in.  Snape's loyalty to Dumbledore was put to a terrible
test.  He was asked to play the part of Judas *and* the part of Pontius
Pilate while the DEs shouted "Crucify him!"  He must be consumed with rage
at Dumbledore for insisting that this was the right thing to do, and even
asking himself:  Was my loyalty worth this?  Was my remorse for two
long-dead classmates worth throwing away my life?

I have no doubt how Snape will ultimately answer these questions.  Snape
will vindicate Dumbledore's trust in him, but I can't see his loyalty as
unflinching.  There's a soliloquy out there somewhere -- "Who calls me
villain?" -- and I want to hear it.

 SSSusan:
Right, as long as people aren't using DDM!Snape to get into all that
mushy-gushy touchy-feely stuff and good-hearted Snape as default
parts of the label. :)

Debbie:
Somehow, a Snape that never questioned why he continued to be loyal to
someone who expected him to split his soul in order to save everyone else is
just a little bit too close to that good-hearted Snape that I abhor.

Debbie
who's not sure this made sense or conceded anything, but really needs to get
on with the Christmas baking


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