Harry Forgiving Snape / Grey!Snape and Character Growth

[cubfanbudwoman]

No: HPFGUIDX 162937

Carol responds:
> Here's the problem for me, then. I actually agree with almost
> everything you say ...
> 
> But what I'm talking about here is the *labels.* When we use a label
> like DDM!Snape, we're not talking about Harry or what Harry will 
> have to get past to understand the complex person that is Snape, 
> including his remorse, his suffering, his loyalty, etc. When we use 
> the DDM!Snape label on this list, we're talking about Snape, and 
> the key question is where Snape's loyalties lie.

SSSusan:
Okay, I see the point you're making.  ESE!Snape, OFH!Snape and DDM!
Snape each speak to what proponents believe *about Snape,* not 
necessarily about what they feel Harry would have to do or think in 
order to come to terms with that particular version of Snape.  I 
understand why Grey!Snape as a label *in the same grouping* would be 
troublesome.

I think that simply means it's unfortunate, then, that it's grouped 
with those other three, then! <g>  Because as a theory of what might 
be to come, Grey!Snape is a nice one, imo.


Carol:
> DDM!Snape as a label *assumes* real remorse, whether it's based on 
> Lily or the life debt or the simple realization that Voldemort was 
> ready to murder an infant to thwart the Prophecy. 

SSSusan:
But *do* we all mean that?  Hmmm.  For me it hinges on loyalty, 
either to the man or to the cause or to the defeat of Voldemort, but 
I don't know that I'm convinced that remorse was the key to that 
loyalty.  I  believe there is remorse in Snape at this point, yes, 
because I believe DD when he said it was so.  But I guess I'd say 
that not all DDM!Snapers believe wholeheartedly in an altruistic 
Snape or even a man who's fully aligned with all DD believes in or 
whose driving motivation is plain & simple remorse.  I mean, in my 
view, it might be simply an absolute commitment to the *man.*  

I guess I start to squirm a little when I feel like, by virtue of 
saying I'm a DDM!Snaper, I'm being lumped with folks who think 
Snape's really "good" at the core.  There may be genuine remorse over 
something or other -- enough to have truly convinced DD that Snape 
was sincere -- but I have my doubts that he was suddenly a changed 
man, fully in alignment with Mr. Epitome of Goodness, full of 
compassion & concern for all wizardkind.

Sorry, that may be unfair. :)   

I just mean that, to me, the DDM! label speaks to the loyalty issue, 
end stop.  It doesn't necessarily speak, even, to what KIND of 
loyalty -- is it to DD the man? to the Order? to whoever is fighting 
the fight against Voldemort? to anyone who'll be fighting Evil 
Overlords 'til the end of time?  To me, all that is "known" is that 
it's just that Snape is loyal to DD to the extent that he is helping 
him in the fight against Voldemort.  And it certainly doesn't speak 
to emotions inside of Snape in my view.


Carol:
> The label Grey!Snape assumes that he's now *in doubt* about his 
> loyalty to Dumbledore because Dumbledore "made" him cast that AK 
> and rejoin the Death Eaters. For me, Snape's loyalty to DD is not 
> in doubt, nor is his willingness to take responsibility for his own 
> actions, most notably the UV and the killing of Dumbledore. 

SSSusan:
Now, see, I didn't think this was at all what Jen was contending in 
her Grey!Snape posts!  It may be that that's part of what Debbie 
believes, but in my reading, I've not seen Jen saying she believes 
Snape is wavering in loyalty *now.*  I'll leave this to others.

 
Carol:
> He has sacrificed everything *for* DD and is not about to go back 
> on that loyalty, any more than he's going to stop feeling remorse 
> for Godric's Hollow, which is his motivation for helping and 
> protecting Harry. He won't be tempted for a moment to *really* join 
> Voldemort's side even though he's facing death or Azkaban already. 
> He'll do what he has to do to help Harry, regardless.

SSSusan:
But can't you see that it could be more *complex* than that for 
Snape?  Yes, I think there is remorse for his part in GH, but do we 
KNOW that that's his motivation for helping & protecting Harry?  I 
sense so much *grudgingly given* in Snape.  I wonder if it's not just 
that protecting & helping Harry is what *Dumbledore* saw as 
necessary, and therefore what he demanded of Snape.  Snape's doing 
it, he's willing in his own way, but is the motivation remorse?  
I see it as all mixed up with that DAMN life debt business (as Snape 
would view it) and with abiding by DD's wishes, as well as perhaps a 
genuine desire to see Voldemort vanquished.  To paint it "just" as 
remorse doesn't do it for me because I think it's highly possible 
that it's more layered than that.


Carol:
> Now, granted, all that is going to be very hard to get across to
> Harry, and Harry will have to see Snape from the ground up, so to
> speak, to understand how the boy he actually *liked* via the notes 
> in his Potions book and *pitied* via the Pensieve scene in OoP 
> became the teacher he hates, not to mention the DE who revealed the 
> Prophecy to Voldemort and was therefore indirectly responsible for 
> his parents' death .... He'll have to learn the *real* reason that
> Snape changed sides (which DD has conceled from him and JKR from us)
> and realize how badly he's distorted the facts trying to make his
> interpretation of Snape fit what DD has told him about Snape's
> remorse. He'll have to fit together Snape's actions throughout their
> years together at Hogwarts with his actions on the tower, which now
> look (to Harry) like betrayal and murder. And *of course* Harry's 
> rage and hatred of Snape are an impediment to him in fighting 
> Voldemort. I've always said that. He *must* overcome his desire for 
> revenge; ergo, he *must* forgive Snape. IOW, I agree with both of 
> you regarding Snape and Harry. Or, sorry. Make that Harry and 
> Snape. I do tend to be Snapecentric. :-)

SSSusan:
LOL.  You do have a tendency to be Snapecentric. ;-)

But aside from the Snapecentricity, we're TOTALLY in agreement on the 
above paragraph, Carol.  It will be a *very* interesting turn in the 
story that finds Harry seeing this, somehow opening up to the idea, 
and actually getting it.  It's very hard to imagine!  But it's 
essential, yes, in my view.


Carol:
> But none of that has anything to do with the *labels* we use on this
> list. DDM!Snape, shorthand for a Snape loyal to Dumbledore, does not
> deny any of this background, any of the complexity of Snape's 
> motives for joining the DEs and then turning to Dumbledore and 
> especially not his remorse for Godric's Hollow, which is his 
> central motive with regard to *Harry.* 

SSSusan:
Right, as long as people aren't using DDM!Snape to get into all that 
mushy-gushy touchy-feely stuff and good-hearted Snape as default 
parts of the label. :)

Siriusly Snapey Susan