Snape's motivations (Was: Order Members' Motivations for Joining Up?)

[justcarol67]

No: HPFGUIDX 163004

Jen: OFH was a bad choice there, 'personal' is a better choice.  In 
> the quote from OOTP (chap. 26), Snape had a 'curious, almost 
> satisfied expression' about discovering what the Dark Lord says to 
> his DE's. I'm sure he feels pride because frankly he's doing a job 
> NO one else can do given his superb Occlumency skills. But my guess 
> is one huge part of his satisfaction is holding power over Voldemort 
> in a way that Voldemort once held over him (speculation). 

Carol responds:
Funny how differently we react to scenes. I read Snape's curiously
satisfied expression as resulting from *Harry's* realizing what
Snape's job was. It was a first step toward, if not reconciliation, at
least mutual understanding of their roles as allies. Yes, Snape takes
pride in his dangerous work, but he wants recognition for it,
specifically from Harry because Harry needs to understand that Snape
really is risking his life for the Order and for Dumbledore or they'll
never get anywhere. ("Do you get it now, Potter? We're allies. You are
neither special nor important, merely the Prophecy Boy who became so
through no action or merit of his own. You can't defeat Voldemort
without my help.") Only Snape can't say that directly without blowing
his cover and/or revealing too much to Voldemort when he unavoidably
exposes some of Harry's memories through the Occlumency lessons. If
encounters with Snape are revealed, best that they be unpleasant.

But, yes, his motives are personal, particularly his relationship to
Dumbledore, who trusts him and believes in him. And yes, no one else
could do his job, both because of his superb Occlumency skills and
because no one else in the Order can spy on the DEs and pass as one of
them. But still, I'm sure that Snape's satisfaction in this scene
relates specifically to Harry.

Jen:
I believe remorse took Snape to Dumbledore's door and was the basis of
their trust, but think a fury for personal vengeance fuels Snape's
desire to defeat Voldemort.

Carol:
I don't see that fury for personal vengeance against Voldemort, even
though I do believe that he sincerely wants to help bring Voldemort
down. All of the fury we've seen from Snape relates in some way to
James Potter, who had the colossal nerve to die without allowing Snape
to fulfill his life debt, and/or Sirius Black, who wanted (in Snape's
view) to murder him and who (Snape thought till proven wrong) had
betrayed the Potters to their deaths, making Snape's efforts to undo
his revelation of the Prophecy futile. If only he could have just
prevented their deaths and be done with it! But now he has the
dangerous role of double agent, which in some ways he relishes
because, as you say, only he can do it. 

But his hatred seems to me to be reserved for the dead James and for
Harry, who constantly reminds Snape, by his appearance and behavior,
of his failure to save James. Also, I think, he feels genuine remorse
for Lily's death--not that he *loved* her or that she showed him
compassion (I don't see it in the Pensieve scene, sorry), but that he
didn't want an innocent woman to die). If he hadn't wanted to prevent
her death and that of her infant, I don't think he'd have gone to
Dumbledore in the first place. So Harry reminds him of his failure to
save Lily as well as James and of the inadvertent results of his
revelation of the Prophecy, the creation of Harry's scar and
Voldemort's prophesied nemesis.

So, yes, he wants Voldemort destroyed and he wants an important part
in that destruction, but he doesn't seem to feel the same sort of
passionate hatred toward Voldemort, whom he regards more as a deadly
menace than a personal enemy, IMO. The closest Snape comes to
expressing "fury" with regard to Voldemort is his words to Harry: "Do
not speak the Dark Lord's name!" For some reason, the name Voldemort
seems to activate Snape's Dark Mark and make it painful. (My own
theory is that the DM is sentient, much as a wand or a Foe Glass is
sentient, and knows that Snape is its master's enemy.) But the enmity
isn't as personal as his hatred of James or his loyalty to Dumbledore.
It's more intellectual, a knowledge that this Dark Wizard must be
deatroyed combined with the belief that his own varied knowledge and
skills (Occlumency, the Dark Arts, DADA, possibly Potions), not to
mention his DE connections (notably the Malfoys) are essential to the
job. 

So I suppose I agree with you about Snape's attitude toward his own
contributions, just not the reading of the scene with Harry or the
"fury" toward Voldemort.

Jen: 
<snip> I'm just speculating that Snape wants LV destroyed for the sake
of his destruction and not for a personal reason which also includes
value for other people (beyond what all Order members share, i.e.,
defeating Voldemort is good for the WW). <snip>

Carol:
I don't see how an impersonal desire for Voldemort's destruction
(which is also what I see in Snape) is consistent with the "fury" you
attribute to Snape, which would have to result from some personal
wrong that Snape wants to avenge (for example, Voldemort murdered
Snape's mother). I'm pretty sure that, for Snape, it's all about the
Potters (and Dumbledore's trust). So Snape's personal vendetta against
Voldemort, if he has one, would be for killing the Potters despite his
efforts to thwart him.(?) Also, once he had tried to prevent the
murders and spied on Voldemort for Dumbledore, he became Voldemort's
secret enemy and there was no going back. If Voldemort found out, he
was dead, so he might as well continue to fight, secretly, on
Dumbledore's side, as only he could, and at the same time earn the
trust and respect he craved.

> 
> Jen, thanking zgirnius for the friendly welcome to Camp DDM and 
> finding the smores quite tasty. :-)
>
Carol, who's glad to have you with us and grateful for the warm
campfire since it's unusually cold in Tucson (Homemade fruitcake, anyone?)