Regressed Harry (Was: DD and Delores)

[justcarol67]

No: HPFGUIDX 163167

Lilygale wrote:
> 
> I disagree that Harry regressed between OotP and HBP.  In OotP Harry
> was definitely a rebellious and independent teenager, and acted both
> bravely and somewhat foolishly, as teenagers tend to do.   I
> recognize that  while other times Harry was a rage-driven teenager.
> His rage resulted from  IMO, post-traumatic stress disorder combined
> with a year of stress that most adults would have difficulty in
> handling.
> 
> Harry's rage was *directed* at Dumbledore much of the time, but it
> did not always emanate from Dumbledore.  Yes, being ignored by his
> mentor fueled some of Harry's anger, but I read Harry's reactions to
> being ignored by Dumbledore more as hurt than rage.  CAPSLOCK Harry
> seemed to derive from other sources, e.g. LV's emotions bleeding
> over into Harry's, the events at the end of GoF that left Harry
> suffering from Post-Traumatic Stress Disorder most of the year,
> ongoing abuse by Umbrage, all on top of Harry's 15 year old hormones.
> 
> However, I see no regression in HBP.  Harry continues to act
> independently, but in a more mature and conbtrolled manner.  He acts
> logically and with purpose.  He becomes somewhat obsessed with
> Malfoy, but looks for evidence to back his hypotheses up by studying
> the Map and asking the elves to keep an eye on Draco.  This despite
> no encouragement from anyone else, teacher or peer.
> 
Carol responds:
I agree, more or less, up to this point. He's obsessed with Draco, not
exactly a mature attitude, and he's taking credit for potions
improvement that aren't his, neither mature nor honest. But at least
he's not screaming at everyone and bossing them around as he does in
OoP. He's a great deal less self-obsessed (not that the pain in his
scar or what happened in the graveyard is his fault, but it is his
fault that he refuses to practice Occlumency and wants to have that
dream). So, altogether, HBP!Harry, though still a teenager with
understandable faults, is an improvement, IMO, over OoP!Harry.

Lilygale:
> Harry complies with Dumbledore's request to obtain Slughorn's memory
> only after repeated prodding and mild shaming because he is more
> focused on events that are more relevant/important to him (Draco,
> Ron, Quidditch); a childishly obedient person would put Dumbledore's
> concerns before his own.

Carol responds:
Here's where I disagree almost completely. Obedience is not
childish--far from it, if the person giving the directions is older
and wiser than the person receiving them. It's childish to *disobey*
your mother or your teacher and mature to respectfully comply with
their requests--unless the request itself is unreasonable. It was
understandable, but not mature, to procrastinate in obtaining the
memory from Slughorn, especially when Dumbledore had emphasized its
importance. He could have resorted to bribing Harry 
("When you get this memory, I'll teach you more about Horcruxes") or
threatening him with dire consequences ("If you don't get this memory,
it will be too late and we'll both be killed!") but DD doesn't operate
that way. He wanted Harry to understand that obtaining that memory was
the responsible and mature thing to do.

Lilygale: 
> Furthermore Harry does not agree with Dumbledore's assessment of
> Snape, and brings up his disagreement.  However, 16 year old Harry
> is no match for overriding his Headmaster, not only because of the
> different in age and experience, but also because, despite
> disagreeing with Dumbledore, Harry deep down respects his wisdom and
> position as headmaster.

Carol responds:
Harry, as you say, is sixteen. DD is 150-plus. He's had much more
experience with life and people than Snape, and in the past, he has
usually been right. Harry ought, by now, to respect Dumbledore's
judgment. I don't think Harry *sufficiently* respects DD's wisdom, nor
does he realize that DD really does know more than he does about what
Draco is up to (and, IMO, that Snape, far from helping Draco in his
task, is trying to protect him and prevent him from doing it). I do
understand, however, that there are some lessons that Harry has to
learn for himself. I'll be extremely surprised if those lessons don't
include DD's being right to protect Draco and trust Snape.
>
Lilygale: 
> Harry certainly acts independently in testing the Half-Blood
> Prince's suggestions, and, although the Prince's methods are
> unorthodox by other adult's (Slughorn's) standards, Harry pursues
> them to see what happens and gets good results.  This certainly
> smacks of independence (as a willingness to try something
> unsanctioned by the current curriculum.  (The question of whether
> this independence borders on cheating is appropriately addressed in
> other threads).

Carol responds:
This line of thinking I don't understand at all. It was Teen!Severus
who was thinking independently, conducting experiments on his own to
improve the directions in the Potions book and get improved results
(just as he was thinking independently in inventing new spells). Harry
is taking credit for the Prince's creativity and inventiveness,
getting Potions credit he doesn't deserve (to Hermione's annoyance
because she knows it's not *his* skill and intelligence that's earning
the high marks) and he's using the spells unthinkingly on people who
can't fight back, notably Squib!Filch. I see no independence involved,
and I don'g think the question of cheating belongs in other threads.
Taking credit for others' work is and always has been cheating, the
opposite of working and thinking independently. (By the same token, I
don't think that Hermione's "helping" the boys with their homework or
doing Neville's Potions work for him ever helped them. The only way to
learn is to do your own work and make your own mistakes without
*depending* on someone else's mind or efforts. That's what
*in*dependence means. And Harry is not pursuing the experiments to see
what happens. He knows, after the first two or three attempts, that
the Prince's directions will work better than those in the text. If he
had any intellectual honesty at all, he'd tell Slughorn about the book
and let him and the others benefit from the improved directions.
*That* would be independent action and highly commendable. Instead, he
chooses to pretend that the work is his own.

Carol, who sees Harry making slow progress in maturity throughout the
books but thinks he still has a lot to learn