[HPforGrownups] Re: Regressed Harry and DD

[Magpie]

No: HPFGUIDX 163171


>> Carol responds:
>> Harry, as you say, is sixteen. DD is 150-plus. He's had much more
>> experience with life and people than Snape, and in the past, he has
>> usually been right. Harry ought, by now, to respect Dumbledore's
>> judgment. <SNIP>
>
>
> Alla:
>
> He was usually right in the past? On the top of my head, I can bring
> up several instances of Dumbledore being wrong. Some of those are
> admitted by Dumbledore, thank goodness - like  whole OOP mess, some
> of those like not figuring out who real Moody is and accordingly
> failing to protect Harry from Graveyard are in my opinion quite
> clear as well. So, what exactly Dumbledore did, which was so right
> and Harry therefore **has to** respect his judgment?
>
> Going against Harry's parents wishes and placing him with Dursleys?
> Failing to communicate with Harry in OOP to let him know why exactly
> DD is avoiding him? Dismissing Harry's anger at the man who is
> complicit in his parents deaths?
>
> Don't get me wrong, Dumbledore IMO had been right in some instances,
> but at most I can put those at fifty fifty and accordingly see no
> reason for Harry just **has to** respect his judgment. Respect is
> earned, not automatically given and I certainly see no reason why
> Harry is obligated to give Dumbledore's respect. He certainly seems
> to respect him ( hence Dumbledore's man), but I sincerely hope that
> it does not mean that Harry respects each and every one of
> Dumbledore's decisions, but only those that are worthy of respect.

Magpie:
I suspect one of the good things about HBP (and DH in the future) is that 
Harry won't be learnng to trust DD but to think like DD in ways that are an 
improvement to his own thinking.With Draco, for instance, Harry didn't learn 
that DD was right to trust him, exactly. What he saw was probably just more 
what DD saw in Draco--so now that will affect the way Harry deals with 
Draco. That will I suspect be an advantage, one that Harry would not have 
had DD had handled Draco the way Harry (understandably) wanted him to.

But of course, DD also learned that Harry was right about Draco in ways DD 
was mistaken. So it's more a case of both of them seeing that they don't 
know everything, and learning from experience rather than just learning to 
always listen to Harry or Snape. The same is actually often true for Harry 
too--when the kids should listen to Harry it's usually because of his 
experience giving him wisdom--it's not just that he's Harry Potter. It's 
different from, for instance, the reasons they ought to listen to Hermione 
when they should.

Carol:
If Neville hasn't learned that Bellatrix Lestrange is far more sadistic and 
far more dangerous than Snape and learned to fear her rather than him, he's 
learned nothing at all in the last six years. I'm pretty sure that facing 
Bellatrix and being tortured by her in OoP
taught Neville that a lesson in the difference between imaginary and real 
danger. If his Boggart is still Snape after he's been Crucio'd by a 
fanatical, sadistic Voldie supporter like Bella, then he's got mental and 
emotional problems that Snape didn't cause. It was, after all, Bellatrix and 
her followers who robbed him of his parents in the first place, as she took 
care to remind him--and I'm pretty sure that
he's faced up to that by now. Neither Snape nor Gran is the real enemy. If 
Neville doesn't know that by DH, he's dead meat. And I really hope that's 
not the case.

Magpie:
I've got to go with Carol on this one. I think that whether or not it's 
right or wrong for Snape to deal with Neville the way he does is a different 
question than how badly Neville reacts to it (though it is an interesting 
question --would we as readers object to it as much if Neville were 
tougher--or if Neville were less likable?). But I think Carol's got a good 
point in making the distinction between real and imagned dangers.

Snape, I think, is definitely an imagined danger for Neville, and as a timid 
person that's exactly where Neville probably has to fight a lot of his worst 
battles--in his imagination. Obviously it's no mystery why Snape is the 
figure of fear for Neville--he yells, he calls him a failure. He seems to 
hit some of the same buttons as Gran does. But I honestly think that if 
Snape revealed himself to be ESE and threatened Neville, Neville would 
probably stand up to him a lot better and easier than he does in class.

Which leads back to the idea that Dumbledore, like the author, seems to 
think teachers like Snape are something kids need to learn to deal with. I 
don't know how far I'd agree with that--if it were me or my kid I don't know 
how much patience I'd have for this kind of thing--he's there to learn 
Potions, not see how well he can stand up to this kind of thing. But I get 
the feeling Neville's third year Boggart is more funny than a sign of real 
damage on Neville's part, and that rather than putting Snape on the level of 
Harry's Dementor!Boggart it's showing the difference between the imagined 
fears of a more normal kid like Neville and Harry since he's come to 
Hogwarts.

-m