Playground Rules - Countering Bully Tactics - the Train Incident

[Mike]

No: HPFGUIDX 163177

Mike chimes in: I realize I'm coming late to the discussion, but as 
this topic interests me both personally and thematically in HP, I 
wanted to add my 2 knuts.

Let me start by saying that I thought Steve's most excellent post 
#162507 is the definitive word on this subject. Most especially his 
part about "Playground Rules":

**********************************************************************
So, why don't the kids who are being bullied go to an
adult? Because the school is not ruled by teachers,
administrators, or rules. It is ruled by the Code of the
Playground. The very fact the bullying thrives in a
heavily supervised area like a school tells kids that
the adults are not on their side. That going to a teacher
is more likely to get you in trouble than the bully, and
is certainly going to bring on a huge heap of inaction
or at the most token action.

So, the choices are 'grin and bear it' or 'kick bully
butt'.     <snip>

  <on to the GoF Train scene>

This is not an intimidation and threat that can be
addressed by the normal rules of society because the
other side, whether Draco, Voldemort, or a schoolyard
bully, are themselves not playing by the rules. This is
the perfect place for 'schoolyard justice' because no
other source justice is able to hold sway.
**********************************************************************

Mike:
I have a first name that sounds a little like a girl's name (no, it 
isn't Michael) and I had red hair (there's a reason the phrase 
isn't "Blond-headed Stepchild"). Kids decided I was an easy mark. In 
the second grade I had my most significant run-in with an older bully 
that I remember to this day. Fortunately for me, and unfortunately 
for the bullies, I was smart and grew to be one of the bigger kids. I 
could take care of myself and prevent others from being bullied, 
which I did because I hated bullies.

But there was also other kind of bullying to be countered. Not all 
intimidation is physical. Psychological bullying can and does cause 
just as much if not more anguish.

Here's Steve again, this from post #162533:

**********************************************************************
That's part of the point I was trying to make. Draco isn't
the standard generic schoolyard bully. This is more of a
grudge match rather than the big kid picking on the skinny
kid. So, I acknowledge the uniqueness of Harry and Draco's
relationship, but unique as it is, it is still resolved by
the rules of the playground, or if you prefer Kid's Rules.
**********************************************************************

Mike:
When I was 13-14 years old, I started Junior High (not Middle School, 
yes I'm that old). One kid a grade above me decided that I was going 
to be his special project for the year. He would make comments about 
my Mudblood Mother ....er, he called me names and knocked books out 
of my hands. He tried to hex me behind my back ...ah, he'd bump into 
me in the halls, push me against the wall, stuff like that. Nothing 
that hurt physically, it was psy-ops. He always had a couple of 
cronies with him, sounding familiar yet? Oh, I should mention that I 
had played baseball against this kid for the previous two summers. 

I wasn't physically afraid of this kid, in the vernacular of the day, 
I could take him. ("Harry was not afraid of Malfoy,..." HBP, p132, 
US) But a conversation with my father convinced me that fighting is 
not the way to settle things. His words were along the lines 
of, "Where would we be in this world if everybody settled their 
differences with fisticuffs?" And it was my dad who taught me to box!!

Besides, Snape would take his side ...um, teachers didn't care who 
started it, in my day you would both be expelled for fighting in 
school.

Then there is what Ginger brought up in post #162601:

**********************************************************************
Actually, that's kind of the point. Draco (in the first 4 books) is
always the one in control. He seeks out the trio. He has his words
picked out. He has his muscles (in the form of C&G) flexed and ready
for the trio's response.

As long as it is just words, he can go on forever. He can keep
spouting "mudblood" and "LV rules" and that sort of thing until the
cows come home. If the trio tells him to leave, tough. He just
keeps at it. Eventually, they make him stop. They do it in the only
way the bully understands. They physically make him shut his mouth.
**********************************************************************

Mike:
So I avoided my tormentor as best as possible. I checked the hallways 
before I walked down them. If I saw him coming my direction, I'd 
reverse course and take the long way around. I'd hide in a crowd if I 
thought he was nearby. It Sucked!! It was a miserable existance for 
2/3 of a school year, trying to do *The Right Thing*. And I could 
take him!

But eventually, things will reach the fish-or-cut-bait stage.
Ginger continues:

**********************************************************************
The trio can't walk away on the train. They are in the compartment
and Draco and Co. are blocking the door. They can't shut him up.
They can't go for help or call a prefect (not that a prefect would do
much good against Draco). He knows exactly which buttons to push.
Declare victory. Abuse Cedric's memory. Threaten one of their
group. How long would it have gone on had the trio not struck?
**********************************************************************

Mike:
On the way home on the Hogwarts Express ...eh, while waiting for the 
school bus home, someone warned me that my tormentor was coming after 
me right then. I enlisted Fred and George ...agh, I asked a couple of 
9th grade boys from my neighborhood if they would keep Crabbe and 
Goyle ... umm, my tormentor's cronies at bay, keep them off me.

OK, I think you see the similiarities, dontcha? When this kid came up 
to me talking smack and trying to push me around again, he got a rude 
awakening. Five minutes later, I was still shaking like a leaf from 
the adreneline, but I wasn't the one with the bloody lip, doubled 
over from a stomach blow and trying unsuccessfully to hide tears. 

There *are* times when "Playground Rules" are the only way to solve 
things. I could have gone on with my miserable life as it was, but 
just as many of us have speculated about Harry, that's no life, 
that's just existance. And just like Steve (don't laugh at me either;-
)) I was one of the cool kids, although more so after this incident.

               ****vvvvvvvvv****vvvvvvvv****

There are two key points that should affect any analysis of the Train 
Incident, one that is pointed out frequently and one that I haven't 
seen mentioned much. The first point is of course that Harry had just 
been tortured and barely escaped Voldemort. Ron and Hermione both 
feel the tension of the imminent VoldWar II. They are all on edge and 
in no mood to be harassed, especially by Draco Malfoy.

The second point - Harry, with help from Ron and Hermione, had just 
spent the year learning to battle magically against foes/obstacles 
that have no compunction about attacking first. IOW, Harry has been 
conditioned to strike against the threat before it strikes you. 
Although Ron and Hermione didn't have to do battle, I can see how 
their empathetic feelings for Harry would put them into the same 
mindset. This is the kind of mindset that could help them in the 
future, against DEs, but can also be triggered be a sudden, emotional 
shock. Draco throwing Cedric in their faces is just that kind of a 
shock that would trigger this response.

In message #162604, Shaun adds another thought regarding the incident:

**********************************************************************
Draco does get away with reasonably minor bullying, because that 
doesn't reach
the tolerance trigger. But there's a limit and that's what we see in 
the train.

This approach - of the students expressing their refusal to tolerate 
bullying -
can be quite successful in schools. But it often has a downside. And 
that is that children do lack judgement. And they can go too far.

And that is what we see after the bullies have been dealt with in 
that scene.
Somebody with mature judgement might - and I stress might - feel that 
stopping the incident was enough. But kids are fairly unlikely to 
stop at that point. And they may work to hurt the people they have 
dealt with. Is that acceptable? It is a hard call for me, actually. 
Personally I believe bullies should be severely punished and part of 
me can view additional injury inflicted on these people over and 
above the need to disable them as punishment and that I could 
justify. But in general, no, because I just don't see that as what is 
happening - it's a possible explanation... but a likely one?
**********************************************************************

Mike:
Yes, you are right Shaun. The stepping on Draco and Goyle was done, 
as Steve said, out of disrespect. But I also agree, they deserved it 
as punishment. Do we have to determine the mindset of the punishers 
as a measure of whether the action was justifiable? Or, to reverse 
the question, if the punishment was just, what does it matter the 
mindset of the punishers?

I can tell you as a 13-year-old, I didn't quit meating out justice at 
the point of foiling the attack. I wanted to be sure that my 
tormentor was left with no doubt that he was defeated so I wouldn't 
be treated with a repeat performance. Besides, after six months of 
torment I had a little pent up emotion. Right here I have to agree 
with something Betsy said, while being confounded by Draco's 
persistence:

**********************************************************************
Betsy Hp in message #162629:
It's hard to put this clearly, so I *know* it'll be misinterperted,
but something I've always admired about the character of Draco is
that he *doesn't* give up. That even though Harry is definitely the
bigger man on campus, Draco does his best to make sure Harry doesn't
get a smooth ride, even while I like Harry.

Also, the Trio don't ignore Draco. At least, not until OotP really,
where they finally have their hands full. 
**********************************************************************

Mike:
Actually, I understand exactly what you're saying Betsy. And this 
brings up another point regarding the Train Incident. The Trio had 
endured four years of Draco, and other than Hermione's slap and the 
mini duel before Potions class, the Trio had not retaliated against 
Draco and Co. up until this point. I think they showed remarkable 
restraint in not transforming them into giant slugs.

But Betsy, in message #162472, doesn't see it that way:

**********************************************************************
I don't like that not one of them felt the slightest twinge of
regret. I don't like that not one of them thought mistreating the
downed boys' bodies was less than admirable. This is not how a hero
should feel. He shouldn't revel in his enemy's loss. It's too bad
that none of these children have a role model to take them aside and
explain why such behavior just isn't done. (Gosh, there are so many
times I wish someone would take a member of the Trio aside and
say "do you really think that was fair/nice/honest, etc.?")
**********************************************************************

Mike:
Here we part company, Betsy. I don't want Harry to be the perfect 
hero, the knight in shining armor. Nor do I think JKR has set Harry 
up to be one. I like that Harry and Co. are flawed, imperfect and at 
the same time typical teenagers in an atypical world. I don't want 
them to feel any regret for the way they treated Malfoy and Co., nor 
do I think they should. They responded exactly the way I would expect 
them to react and furthermeore, the way I would hope they would 
respond. 

I find the Trio's and Twin's  response entirely justifiable and if 
you take out the magic, entirely believable as the type of RW action 
you could expect from RW teenagers put in a similar situation. I 
completely empathize with their position and their response; been 
there, done that, don't regret it a bit.

               ****vvvvvvvvv****vvvvvvvv****

I wish I had been able to take part in this discussion two weeks ago 
when it was a front burner discussion. Unfornately, I was engrossed 
in finding a new job. Fortunately, I got the job I was working 
towards :-)

Mike

These are the posts from which the above portions were drawn. As 
usual, they were all excellent posts. The entire discussion was 
filled with excellent posts.

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/162507
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/162533
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/162601
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/162604
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/162629
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/162472