Practicing Legilimency against an Occlumens(Re: Snape's motivations & Occumency)

[justcarol67]

No: HPFGUIDX 163281

Carol earlier:
> > BTW, I don't think that Legilimency works the way you think it
does. It can't discover underlying motives and loyalties.  LV can't
explore someone's mind at will. It only works to reveal the thought
that's uppermost in someone's mind at the moment, which is why it's
chiefly used to detect lies. 
> 
Jen responded: 

Snape's own description in the Occlumency chapter of OOTP makes 
> Legilimency sound fairly invasive when practiced by an expert.  
> Masters can 'delve into the minds of their victims and [to] intepret 
> their findings correctly'.  We see that Snape can call forth a
stream of memories from Harry, including ones from long ago that
aren't in his concious mind at the moment, so Voldemort is not seeing
only what is uppermost in a person's mind. <snip>

Carol again:
Ah, but you're conflating standard eye-to-eye Legilimency with the
Legilimens spell, which Snape is using as a teaching tool to give
Harry something to defend himself against. I doubt that Voldemort uses
the spell; he just looks people in the eye to determine whether
they're lying, which is why Snape, the superb Occlumens, can defend
against this intrusion so skilfully.
Jen:
> 
> I find it easier to believe that Snape is supressing only those 
> memories which have to do with his turn to Dumbledore up through the 
> death of the Potters and not tons of memories from the time he 
> switched loyalty until Voldemort returned. 

Carol:
And I find it easier to believe that no such trickery is necessary.
Snape merely suppresses the emotions as well as the specific memories
that would reveal a particular lie. And he habitually suppresses most
of his emotional baggage, say, whatever relates to James Potter, but
on a few occasions when he's pushed to extremes (never around
Voldemort) his anger escapes him. That's what he means< IMO, by
wearing your heart on your sleeve being a weakness. He may also be
referring to his loyalty to Dumbledore, which is careful not to
display openly most of the time. As I said, I don't think LV would
resort to the Legilimens spell. He prefers to believe that, as the
world's most skilled Legilimens, he can see everything he needs to
know using eye contact. And, of course, he assumes that he interprets
what he sees correctly, for example, Wormtail's "loyalty" being
self-preservation. Snape can fool him; most others can't. If Draco
were to try simply blocking him without substituting other thoughts
and memories (or partial or falsified thoughts and memories), he'd be
in big trouble. Snape, much more sophisticated in his Occlumency, can
lie to the Dark Lord without detection. And his deep-seated loyalty to
DD and his desire to bring LV down would also be habitually hidden.

> 
> > Carol, who never said anything about a layer of goodness in Snape 
> > but does think that he's thoroughly and permanently opposed to
> > Voldemort despite his Slytherin instincts and personally loyal to
> > Dumbledore, even and perhaps especially with DD dead by his hand.
> 
> Jen: Ack.  I keep getting feedback that my attempts to characterize
a Snape different from my own reading are missing the mark.  In my own
mind I call him "Good Snape" but that seems to connotate "Nice Snape" 
> for some (not necessarily you, Carol).  Someone have a few words to 
> sum up a Snape who isn't just loyal but has other attributes of 
> goodness?  Some of the attributes I've seen are things like Snape 
> being heroic or morally and philosophically aligned with Dumbledore 
> or solely motivated by deep remorse.
>
Carol again:
Help. I don't know if this will help, but the traits I attribute to
Snape (setting aside a propensity for sarcasm and a contempt for
weakness and ineptitude) are loyalty to DD, determination to bring
down LV, desire for respect and recognition, skill in creating an
ambiguous persona (spying, lying, acting, Occlumency), genuine
affection for the Malfoys and concern for Draco's welfare (which
motivated him to take the UV, genuine remorse for his role in
revealing the Prophecy, courage that enables him to place himself
repeatedly in peril for the cause of defeating LV, and (possibly)
enjoyment of the risks involved in walking the double-agent tightrope
and pride in his ability to do so successfully. As a teacher, he
really wants his students to do well on their OWLs and NEWTs (though
he hates foolishness and carelessness and wants only those who can
follow directions and actually care about potions in his NEWT Potions
class. DADA is another matter; he'll take anyone who passed the OWL,
and even those who failed, like Crabbe and Goyle, get remedial
training.) My Snape is brilliant and creative, as shown by his coming
to school knowing all those hexes, the HBP's notes, and all his
accomplishments in the six books, from being one of the few people who
can perfectly brew Wolfbane Potion to the Healing he does in HBP. He
excels in both Potions and DADA, but he also has a knowledge of the
Dark Arts which makes him a unique and invaluable asset to the side of
good. No one else can take his place as either spy or teacher.
Dumbledore alone knew his true worth.

As for principles and morals, it's very hard to say. He grew up
Slytherin, but except for the one use of "Mudblood" under duress and
the possibly defensive nickname "Half-Blood Prince" (which I think is
a reaction to mistreatment by the pure-blood Princes), I see no
indication that he subscribes to the pure-blood superiority ethic, and
I believe that his remorse for revealing the Prophecy and for failing
to save the Potters is real. Also, he seems to have "slithered out of
action" on numerous occasions, which seems to show that he wants
nothing to do with the Death Eaters' typical activities. We have no
indication that he ever used an Unforgiveable Curse before the tower,
when his choice was to die futilely or commit murder but save the
boys, and he saved Harry, whom he clearly hates, from an Unforgiveable
Curse. He invented a Dark curse when he was about sixteen but also
invented or discovered a complex countercurse for it unlike any other
we've seen. And even though there seems to be no magical compulsion
binding him to his life debt to the dead James, he seems to consider
himself bound by a debt of honor to protect James's much-disliked son.

I don't know how much of this Snape you also see, or whether this is
the Snape you're calling "Good Snape" (and utterly reject. This Snape
is not kind or golden-hearted or secretly fond of Harry, but he does
appear to be bound by principles unique to himself, and he is
unquestionably loyal to Dumbledore and opposed to Voldemort. He
protects Harry partly out of remorse, partly out of a sense of
indebtedness to James that he would much rather not feel, partly out
of loyalty to DD, but chiefly because, willynilly, Harry is the Chosen
One and he *must* be able to defeat Voldemort in the end because no
one else can do it.

A name for this Snape? Funny. I call him DDM!Snape. But since others
see DDM!Snape rather differently, I suppose we could call him
GoodButNotNice!Snape or ComplexButSincerelyOpposedToVoldemort!Snape.
Somehow, I prefer plain old DDM!Snape. So much simpler.

Carol, who admires Snape's courage and resourcefulness but not his
propensity to revenge and sees an urgent need for Harry to recognize
his similarity to Snape and steer away from that last, dangerous trait