Practicing Legilimency against an Occlumens(Re: Snape's motivations & Occumency)

[Jen Reese]

No: HPFGUIDX 163282

> Carol again:
> Ah, but you're conflating standard eye-to-eye Legilimency with the
> Legilimens spell, which Snape is using as a teaching tool to give
> Harry something to defend himself against. I doubt that Voldemort 
> uses the spell; he just looks people in the eye to determine whether
> they're lying, which is why Snape, the superb Occlumens, can defend
> against this intrusion so skilfully.

Jen: No, I don't think I'm confusing anything.  Obviously Voldemort 
is not standing before Snape shouting "Legilimens!" but he is doing 
*something* magical when he practices Legilimency or all he is doing 
is staring into Snape's eyes.  Harry felt no difference between 
Snape's lessons and the moment in the bathroom in HBP: "He knew what 
Snape was going to do and he had never been able to prevent it..." 

Jen:
> I find it easier to believe that Snape is supressing only those
> memories which have to do with his turn to Dumbledore up through the
> death of the Potters and not tons of memories from the time he
> switched loyalty until Voldemort returned.

> Carol:
> And I find it easier to believe that no such trickery is necessary.

Jen: What trickery?  We are talking about Snape doing the same thing 
as far as I can tell.  I'm simply proposing he has *fewer* memories 
and feelings to suppress than you are.

Carol:
> And, of course, he assumes that he interprets what he sees 
> correctly, for example, Wormtail's "loyalty" being self-
> preservation. Snape can fool him; most others can't. 

Jen: I agree with that, I'm opposed to the idea Voldemort is simply 
seeing a surface memory, that there is more he is able to determine 
when using Legilimency.  Subtle distinctions.

Carol:
> And his deep-seated loyalty to DD and his desire to bring LV down
> would also be habitually hidden.

Jen: Right, I said this above in different words in my opinion and 
that's what you termed trickery.  We may have different reasons for 
why we believe Snape wants Voldemort defeated but the outcome is the 
same and it is something Snape must conceal.

Carol:
<snipped description of Snape>
> I don't know how much of this Snape you also see, or whether this is
> the Snape you're calling "Good Snape" (and utterly reject). This 
> Snape is not kind or golden-hearted or secretly fond of Harry, but
> he does appear to be bound by principles unique to himself, and he
> is unquestionably loyal to Dumbledore and opposed to Voldemort. He
> protects Harry partly out of remorse, partly out of a sense of
> indebtedness to James that he would much rather not feel, partly out
> of loyalty to DD, but chiefly because, willynilly, Harry is the
> Chosen One and he *must* be able to defeat Voldemort in the end
> because no one else can do it.

Jen: I read the same actions you do, the difference is the value I 
place on them *given the moral world Rowling has created*.  That's 
the disctinction in my mind, it's not about what I wish for Snape, or 
whether I *personally* see value in some of his actions.  My belief 
is Rowling has created an adult character who is more shrouded in 
mystery and ambiguity than the other adult characters (or for a 
longer period of time at least) but in the end Snape will act as a 
tool for getting Harry where he needs to be just like the rest of 
them.  As such, I have very serious doubts JKR is going for a 
complicated redemption where Harry looks back and sees he misread 
Snape's **character**.  I expect Harry will learn to overcome, to 
forgive, to 'see with new eyes' the **actions** he holds Snape most 
accountable for: handing over the prophecy, the UV once he learns the 
full contents (I don't see Rowling keeping that out of Harry's POV) 
and AK'ing Dumbledore (or learning he didn't AK).  So to me Hermione 
pretty much summed up Snape when she said: "Evil is a strong word."  
Harry will learn Snape is not the evil person he believes him to be 
at the end of HBP, i.e., loyal to Voldemort.  He will learn things 
about Snape's past necessary to get him the point of seeing Snape 
redeemed himself.  Past that, I'm not hoping for much.

Carol: 
> A name for this Snape? Funny. I call him DDM!Snape. But since others
> see DDM!Snape rather differently, I suppose we could call him
> GoodButNotNice!Snape or ComplexButSincerelyOpposedToVoldemort!Snape.
> Somehow, I prefer plain old DDM!Snape. So much simpler.

Jen:  Then we've come full circle.  I understood that DDM referred 
only to Snape's loyalty and that's why I pulled Grey!Snape off the 
table.  I'll just drop it now.