Role of ESE in Hero's Quest (was:Re: Was HPB's ending BANG-y?...)

[horridporrid03]

No: HPFGUIDX 147608

> >>Betsy Hp:
> > This sounded wrong to me, so I did some fast and dirty web 
> > research.  The heroic quest (or the Hero's Journey) doesn't need 
> > a secretly evil, or "surprise" villain at all. <SNIP>

> >>Alla:
> Where did I say that heroic quest needs a secret evil,            
> or "surprise" villain? I said exactly the opposite - that hero    
> needs to know who your enemies are. So I am not quite sure what    
> exactly sounded wrong to you in my reply.

Betsy Hp:
You were talking about Snape, though, correct?  And I thought you 
were saying that Harry will need to correctly identify the villain 
(Snape) and that, indeed, there *must* be a villain in order for 
there to be a heroic quest.  I was saying that the mystery of 
identifying the villain is *not* an essential part of a heroic 
quest.  Voldemort is enough.  We don't need the "surprise" of 
villain Snape.  The heroic quest is generally more "know thyself" 
rather than "know thine enemies".  (Though the first often leads to 
the latter.)   

You snipped this part but I also pointed out that there's no need 
for a villain in a heroic quest.  It was the entirety of your answer 
that I was speaking towards, that I thought there was something a 
bit off in the definition of the heroic quest rather than just the 
secret villain part.

Honestly, I think the "hero's journey" or "heroic quest" has tended 
to not be properly defined when it's been brought up on this list, 
so I was using this post as a jumping off point -- not just 
answering you specifically.  The heroic quest is a lot broader, I 
think, than it's been given credit for.

> >>Betsy Hp:
> > And if there is a villain, generally the hero knows exactly who 
> > they are from the get-go. <SNIP>

> >>Alla:
> Correct, but since my argument is that book 7 is the ONLY book    
> where at least in part we will see the quest, I say that this is   
> exactly true - Harry knows "from the get go" of book 7 who the    
> villains are and Snape can very well be amongst villains.         
> Basically, in the book 7 IMO Harry will not make mistakes as to    
> who the villains are.

Betsy Hp:
See, I'd say that the *entire series* has been a heroic quest.  And 
Harry has *always* correctly identified the villain (Voldemort).  In 
fact, he's one of the few people willing to out and out name the 
villain, and often (each time?) he has a moment of personal 
connection with the villain.  Harry's challenge has, it seems to me, 
been to correctly identify himself and thereby correctly see past 
Voldemort's smoke and mirrors.  Voldemort and Harry are tied 
together and perhaps the whole thrust of the series has been Harry 
trying to untangle himself from Voldemort.

> >>Betsy Hp:
> > <snip>
> > Dorothy met the Wicked Witch of the West pretty quickly after    
> > arriving in OZ;

> >>Dave:
> Actually, that's just in the movie.... <snip>

Betsy Hp:
Yup.  I was going with the movie, since I'm not all that familiar 
with the books. <g>

> >>Dave:
> BTW, I think in the light of the current discussion that it's
> worth noting that in the 14 Oz books by Baum and countless ones by
> other authors, I can't think of one that follows a "Hero's Journey"
> model -- They are all about camaraderie and cooperation, and almost
> never does Dorothy or whomever the main protagonist is(*) have to
> "go it alone".

> >>Jen:
> But in the Hero's Quest, the hero doesn't usually have to "go it   
> alone". Campbell specifically states that the hero receives help   
> and or finds people who will be helpful.

Betsy Hp:
Either can be true, I think.  In "The Old Man and the Sea" the old 
man is alone.  In "Heart of Darkness" Marlow has help, but I think 
he's essentially alone.  In "The Adventures of Huckleberry Finn" 
Huckleberry has Jim.  Harry is at times, quite alone when 
confronting his own self-doubts, etc.  But when facing down 
Voldemort, he's had help from Dumbledore or his parents.

But that's what I mean about a too specific definition of a hero's 
quest.  The only hard and fast rule (I think) is that a hero has a 
task to fulfill (catch fish, defeat Dark Lord, fetch missing guy).  
There's no rules about how that task is assigned (bearded guru, 
empty pockets, job assignment), how it's carried out (fellowship, 
fishing line, Company men), that it succeeds, or what specifically 
is achieved.  That the hero tries for something, that he learns 
something along the way, is about all that's needed.  (I know I'll 
be corrected if I'm wrong <g>.)

And I do think JKR has set Harry on a journey.  She used Hagrid to 
put Harry on the path and each book has brought him closer to 
whatever occurs in book 7.  The ESE folks have provided Harry with 
opportunities to learn something about himself and Voldemort, and 
they've provided something interesting for the readers.  But I don't 
think she's ever written an out and out mystery where Harry gathers 
clues and has a "j'accuse" moment.  In fact, he's usually as stunned 
as the reader when the ESE!character is revealed.  (What I find 
interesting, and an important part of understanding his character, 
is that Dumbledore is generally stunned himself.)

And, every single time, the actual villain is Voldemort.  (Even 
CoS's Tom Riddle has become Voldemort to his closest friends.)  So 
yeah, I think the entire series has been a hero's quest or journey.  
ESE's provide flavor (so I'm back to thinking book 7 will have one) 
but they aren't the backbone of the story (so I'm seeing it as a 
secondary story line).  Harry's quest to destroy Voldemort has 
always been the key story line.

In HBP we were able to watch Tom Riddle's heroic quest and see how 
it lead him to create Voldemort.  Perhaps book 7 will give us some 
insight into Snape's heroic quest and how it first lead him to and 
than away from Voldemort.  But all of this has gone towards, and 
will go towards, Harry fulfilling his quest.  In the end, there's 
not really a need for a villain at all.

Betsy Hp, perches happily out on her limb. :-)