[HPforGrownups] Re: Teaching Styles

[Shaun Hately]

No: HPFGUIDX 147821

On 8 Feb 2006 at 19:04, dumbledore11214 wrote:

> Alla:
> 
> I just want to address this point, because maybe I misinterpreted 
> your position in our past discussions or maybe not, we shall see.
> 
> Oh, by the way, please please if you feel that I am misinterpreting 
> your position now, correct me, it is certainly not intentional, if 
> this happens.
> 
> I was under impression that your position is that as long as Snape 
> teaching style works for the majority of the students and does not 
> work for few of them, the teacher should have no problem whatsoever 
> and the student should deal with it - find another teacher, transfer 
> to another school, something like that. ( Again, I am not sure if you 
> said it in those exact words, this is the summary, which I felt was 
> your position on it, I could be wrong)

Shaun:

Not exactly, although I can understand why you've arrived at that 
conclusion, because it's not that dissimilar from my position really. 

I believe that if a teacher's methods are working for the great 
majority of students (not just a simple majority - 51% - but a 
significant majority - say at least 80%) then that teacher is almost 
certainly a good teacher. The fact that their methods may not work 
for a small minority of their class doesn't make them a bad teacher.

The simple fact - and it's a fact that a lot of people don't like 
talking about - is that there are very, very few heterogeneous 
classrooms where every child in the class is receiving an education 
appropriate to their needs. Virtually every teacher has some kids who 
do not respond to their teaching style, no matter how good that style 
seems. As I have said myself in the past, I did not learn well in 
modern classroom environments, with teachers who spent all their time 
trying to be nice. Was that because they were bad teachers? No. Most 
of the class was learning, their style just wasn't right for me.

In terms of Harry Potter, look at Trelawney's Divination classes, and 
Hermione's reaction to them. Again we have a total mismatch between 
teaching style and the needs of a particular student. It happens.

A teacher is not a bad teacher just because they fail to get through 
to a small number of their students. A bad teacher is someone like - 
well, like Umbridge, or Lockhart, I would say. Who don't add value 
for many students (if any) at all.

What I am saying is that judging a teacher based only on their worst 
performing students is not a fair or accurate way to judge them. You 
need to judge them on their success with their classroom as a whole.

> Alla:
> 
> But now you are saying that Neville's needs should not be ignored, so 
> I guess you have the certain line of mistreatment of, I don't know 
> one or two students ( Harry and Neville in our situation), which if 
> crossed by Snape would place him as "bad teacher". Is that correct?

Well, certainly I agree that there is, somewhere, a line of 
'mistreatment' that a teacher should never cross. But where that line 
is... that's where it gets tricky.

I do think Snape crosses a line when it comes to Harry, and I have 
said so in the past. Snape has a personal visceral hatred for Harry 
Potter as a person. This has *nothing* to do with his teaching, 
however - it's purely personal based on factors completely external 
to his teaching and to his skill as a teacher.

With regards to Neville, however, I feel the question is much more 
complicated. Two examples:

"Things didn't improve for the Gryffindors as the Potions lesson 
continued. Snape put them all into pairs and set them to mixing up a
simple potion to cure boils. He swept around in his long black cloak,
watching them weigh dried nettles and crush snake fangs, criticizing
almost everyone except Malfoy, whom he seemed to like. He was just
telling everyone to look at the perfect way Malfoy had stewed his
horned slugs when clouds of acid green smoke and a loud hissing
filled the dungeon. Neville had somehow managed to melt Seamus's
cauldron into a twisted blob, and their potion was seeping across
the stone floor, burning holes in people's shoes. Within seconds,
the whole class was standing on their stools while Neville, who had
been drenched in the potion when the cauldron collapsed, moaned in
pain as angry red boils sprang up all over his arms and legs.

'Idiot boy!' snarled Snape, clearing the spilled potion away
with one wave of his wand. 'I suppose you added the porcupine quills
before taking the cauldron off the fire?'"

(PS)

Is Snape mean to Neville here? Yes, he is. But why? Has it come out 
of the blue?

No, what has happened is that Neville has failed to properly follow 
instructions for a 'simple potion'. He's made a mistake out of 
carelessness, which has damaged other students property, created 
chaos in the classroom, and which has also hurt himself.

"A few cauldrons away, Neville was in trouble. Neville regularly
went to pieces in Potions lessons; it was his worst subject, and
his great fear of Professor Snape made things ten times worse. His
potion, which was supposed to be a bright, acid green, had turned -

'Orange, Longbottom,' said Snape, ladling some up and allowing to 
splash back into the cauldron, so that everyone could see.

'Orange. Tell me, boy, does anything penetrate that thick skull
of yours? Didn't you hear me say, quite clearly, that only one rat 
spleen was needed? Didn't I state plainly that a dash of leech
juice would suffice? What do I have to do to make you understand,
Longbottom?'"

(PoA)

Two books later - and the same situation. Neville makes an elementary 
mistake because he didn't follow instructions.

What I see Snape doing, most of the time, with regards to Neville is 
seeking to discipline him. By verbally scolding him. And, no, I don't 
think that crosses the line, unpopular and unfashionable though it 
may be to some people. 

But more importantly, it's hardly unique to Snape at Hogwarts - as 
has been pointed out on numerous occasions, Professor McGonnagal also 
scolds Neville when she feels he deserves it. Lupin scolds Harry - 
admittedly he does so in a much more subtle way, but, by God, he does 
it.

When I was 13, I started at a new school. At the time, I was 
emotionally extremely fragile. The thing is, this was a rather strict 
school, and on more than a couple of occasions, I got into trouble 
for various reasons. And, sometimes, I got told off in quite 
distressing ways. I didn't like it at all. I remember *very* vividly 
being told off in front of my entire class after I didn't do some 
homework and had tried to conceal that fact. It was one of the most 
miserable experiences I can remember. But I never again tried to hide 
the fact that I hadn't done my homework (on reflection, I think my 
teacher would have preferred if my response had merely been to start 
doing my homework, rather than to just stop concealing the fact I 
hadn't... I would have preferred it too, on further reflection as the 
methods they used to make me decide to take that further step wound 
up being very unpleasant and painful for me. But I digress).

The thing is what that teacher did to me *hurt* me emotionally (and 
what he did later hurt me physically). But it worked (to a point). 
And I deserved it. And he wasn't a bad teacher, by any means - I 
didn't appreciate him as much at the time, as I do today, but looking 
back on him, he was probably one of the best teachers I ever had. And 
that's not just my opinion.

The thing is, telling a child off, even harshly - I don't see 
anything wrong with that at times - I really don't. But more 
importantly, in the context of Hogwarts, it's not unusual. Singling 
out Snape because he does this as being a bad teacher would seem to 
me very odd.

Is there a line to be crossed? Yes, there is - and at Hogwarts we 
have clear indications that there are some things teachers may not 
do. Whipping is no longer an option at the school, though it has been 
in the past, and it doesn't seem that it would be all that hard to 
reintroduce it - it seems that it is a matter for the Headmaster's or 
Headmistress' discretion. So that crosses a line (and, I should point 
out that, while personally, I think corporal punishment is 
appropriate in some cases in schools, I also believe that if it is 
banned then it is *banned*. It is utterly inappropriate for a teacher 
to exceed their statuatory authority even if they believe the limits 
are in the wrong place). Also, we know that teachers are not meant to 
use transfiguration as a punishment - that definitely crosses a line.

Although, seeing I have mentioned the issue of the fact that 
transfiguration as a punishment does cross the line, I just want to 
raise this rather disturbing (to me at least) passage from 'Harry 
Potter and the Philosopher's Stone'.

"'I AM NOT PAYING FOR SOME CRACKPOT OLD FOOL To TEACH HIM MAGIC
TRICKS!' yelled Uncle Vernon.

But he had finally gone too far. Hagrid seized his umbrella and
whirled it over his head, 'NEVER,' he thundered, '- INSULT- ALBUS-
DUMBLEDORE - IN - FRONT - OF - ME!'

He brought the umbrella swishing down through the air to point
at Dudley - there was a flash of violet light, a sound like
a firecracker, a sharp squeal, and the next second, Dudley was
dancing on the spot with his hands clasped over his fat bottom,
howling in pain. When he turned his back on them, Harry saw a curly
pig's tail poking through a hole in his trousers.

Uncle Vernon roared. Pulling Aunt Petunia and Dudley into the
other room, he cast one last terrified look at Hagrid and slammed
the door behind them.

Hagrid looked down at his umbrella and stroked his beard.

'Shouldn'ta lost me temper,' he said ruefully, 'but it didn't
work anyway. Meant ter turn him into a pig, but I suppose he was
so much like a pig anyway there wasn't much left ter do.'"

Talk about a disturbing example of somebody crossing the line. OK, 
Hagrid isn't a teacher at this point - but rereading that passage 
recently as I started a reread of the books, that really did chill 
me. Because we *know* that transfiguration isn't meant to be used as 
a punishment - but Hagrid certainly tried to cross that line. But 
even worse - it was Vernon Dursley who had angered him. Not Dudley. 
Hagrid deliberately targeted an innocent child with an an 
inappropriate spell out of anger towards his father. You want to talk 
about crossing a line. That's a real example in my view. And it's 
even made me begin to wonder about Hagrid's true allegiances. But, 
again, I digress (-8

My point is that, yes, I do believe there are lines that should not 
be crossed. And we know that Hogwarts does have such lines. 
Apparently scolding students - even in a particularly harsh way - 
doesn't cross the lines that exist at Hogwarts. If that is so, and 
*if* it is wrong, then that is a systemic problem with the school in 
general. It is *not* a problem with Severus Snape. Not when we see 
other teachers doing it as well. If it's inappropriate (and I think 
that is highly debatable, but a perfectly valid position for a person 
to adopt), it is inappropriate whoever is doing it, and viewing it as 
somehow different when it comes to Snape seems to me to unjustified.

> Alla:
>
> If this is indeed correct, my question to you will be where you place 
> the limit?
> 
> How much Snape has to mistreat Neville and Harry before you would 
> consider him a bad teacher and NOT simply that his methods do not 
> work for Neville and Harry?

Shaun:

That's an extremely difficult question to answer - sorry, that's not 
quite correct. It's just that even after answering the question, it's 
an extremely difficult thing to measure when talking about abstracts. 

> Alla:
>
> Let's suppose that after much discussed "Trevor potions lesson" 
> Neville would have gotten so upset that he would have committed 
> suicide and left a note that  the sole reason for his suicide would 
> have been that he cannot handle Snape anymore. Would you say then 
> that Snape should have been removed from Hogwarts right away or would 
> you say that it is Neville's problem that his psyche was too fragile 
> in the first place?

I would say neither. Now, please understand that I am writing this as 
someone who came very, very close to suicide while at school, largely 
because of the way I was treated by certain teachers at the age of 
12. I've actually written about my school experiences in a book that 
is supposed to be published this year (it's been supposed to be 
published for the last few years, this time I tend to believe it's 
going to actually happen as the new publisher is much bigger than the 
original one) - the following are two very brief extracts from what I 
wrote for that book:

"Though I have survived and now look forward to my future, I did not 
emerge from my schooling unscathed. I bear physical and emotional 
scars from my experiences. Most notably I am a clinical depressive 
and the current prognosis is that this condition may have to be 
controlled by medication for the rest of my life. I spent a great 
deal of my adolescence suicidal - though I never actually made an 
attempt at taking my own life, I seriously considered the idea and 
came very close to doing so on several occasions."

and:

"And I believe that most of my teachers, even those whose actions 
hurt me, were honest, committed and decent people, but who were 
simply unequipped to deal with a child like me."

The question you ask is not a particularly abstract one - not for me 
at least. I had teachers who left me on the verge of suicide - and I 
still believe most of them were honest, committed and decent people. 
I've been through that wringer.

Now, to your question, I would not say that the fact that somebody 
suicided is necessarily an indication of a fragile psyche. People - 
and this includes children - suicide for all sorts of reasons. 
Personally, I believe that suicide is, in nearly all cases, an 
irrational act, and so in nearly all cases, I believe who commits 
such an act is not thinking rationally - but that's different from 
saying they have a fragile psyche.

But because a person who commits suicide is often irrational - and I 
do believe that to be the case - that does mean that the mere fact 
somebody suicides and leaves a note saying that a particular person 
was responsible, doesn't necessarily mean all that much.

I would say that if such a situation developed at Hogwarts as a real 
school, I would expect Snape to be investigated. And if it was found 
he has acted outside the rules relating to his interactions with 
Neville, or if he had ignored very clear warning signs that what he 
was doing was negatively effecting Neville to the point that a 
reasonable educator should have realised that self harm was a 
significant risk, then in that situation I would want him dismissed.

But I would need to be convinced of that - and so far I don't see 
evidence at that level.
 
> Alla:
>
> Keep in mind that I am not saying that Neville as he is now would 
> have done it and as we see he did not, but the fact that Neville 
> found inner strength to deal with the abusive teacher ( my opinion of 
> course, nothing more) does not make the severity of Snape's actions 
> any less to me.

Shaun:

Abuse is abuse. The fact that some students may be better able to 
deal with abuse than others, doesn't change the seriousness of 
genuine abuse. If something is abusive, then it is abusive, no matter 
how the student deals with it. It doesn't cease to be abuse, just 
because a student is better equipped to deal with it.

*BUT* (and this is a big but, and I cannot lie)

it works both ways. Non-abuse does not *become* abuse simply because 
a particular student is ill equipped to handle it. 

> Alla:
>
> Let's suppose that corporal punishment in its traditional form would 
> have been still allowed at Hogwarts ( at least Dumbledore was smart 
> enough to stop that IMO) and Snape decided to whip Harry severely 
> for  not addressing him "Sir" or "Professor", moreover Snape 
> deliberately abused that punishment and gave Harry more blows that it 
> is allowed to the point that Harry lost consciousness. Do you think 
> that would have warranted Dumbledore firing Snape on the spot or 
> still Snape should be allowed to continue teaching other students?

Yes, it would warrant his immediate dismissal, and I would hope 
prosecution to the full extent of the law. And that is coming from 
someone who does believe corporal punishment can sometimes be 
appropriate in schools. The instant he had inflicted more strokes 
than was authorised, he crossed an absolute line.
 
> Alla:
>
> What is the extent of the free reign you would allow Snape over few 
> students, if it is a given that he is a good teacher for everybody 
> else? I mean, I still think that we have no definite proof that he is 
> a good teacher for everybody else, except Umbridge calling class 
> advanced, but let's suppose I buy it for the sake of the argument.

Shaun:

As long as Snape is acting within the boundaries placed on him by 
those concerned with the governance of Hogwarts (and I 
would say that is the Headmaster, the Governors - and *possibly* the 
Ministry of Magic), then that sets the limits in my 
view. As long as he is acting within what is accepted at Hogwarts as 
acceptable.
 
Now, just finishing up with a question I think I should answer, and 
which I haven't found it convenient to answer above. I 
am just going to paste back in something you said earlier in this 
post, so I can reply to another point I missed above, and 
which I can't figure out how to neatly insert where it would 'belong' 
above.

> Alla:
>
> But now you are saying that Neville's needs should not be ignored

Shaun:

I believe this is in response to my statement in my last mail that:

"But guess what - the class cannot revolve around Neville Longbottom. 
He's one child in classes of about twenty (at least I 
think that's what the numbers show). His needs shouldn't be ignored 
(I really believe that) but we don't really see any 
evidence anywhere (except of Harry's fictional extra potions lessons 
masking occlumency) that much effort is made to 
provide extra help at Hogwarts. If this is a flaw, it's a flaw in the 
school in general, not a flaw in Snape's  
classes specifically."

Some people might well feel that there is some conflict between my 
views, here. How can I say that Neville's needs 
shouldn't be ignored, but at the same time state that Snape shouldn't 
alter his teaching methods just for Neville.

Well, there isn't a conflict at all. Not in my view.

I think a teacher altering their style of teaching, if it is working 
for most of the class, to try and cater to a small 
minority for whom it isn't working, is wrong. It involves giving a 
small number of children priority over a larger number 
of children - and I disagree with that.

*But* at the same time, I firmly believe all children should be 
entitled to a reasonably appropriate education given their 
individual needs. I just don't think you do this simply by deciding 
to let their needs dominate your classroom to the 
detriment of other students. If a students individual needs can be 
accommodated in a classroom *without* negatively 
impacting other students, then I certainly have no objection to it. 
But if what they need is incompatible with the needs of 
the rest of the class, then the support they need has to come from 
elsewhere.

And I do think this is something that Hogwarts seems to lack. There's 
no real sign, in my view, that any real attention is 
paid to students who fall through the cracks in particular classes. 
This does seem to be the case for Neville in Potions - 
it's also the case for Hermione in Divination, in my view. I would 
want any real school to have something in place to deal 
with these situations.

*But* I have to say that, once again, Hogwarts is presented as a very 
traditional, very old fashioned school - and from 
that perspective, it really is not at all unusual that it is a sink 
or swim environment. That was the reality of a lot of 
these schools, and though I will defend them on many, many issues, on 
that issue, I would hope that most have changed.

But overall, even when a student at Hogwarts does seem to have a 
problem in some subjects, they have plenty of other 
places. OK, Neville doesn't do well in potions. He does very well in 
herbology. There's no reason to feel a student *has* 
to do well in every subject. It's nice when they do, but there are 
always some students for whom a particular class won't 
work - and generally this isn't a disaster, as long as in general 
they can get a decent education.

Maybe this will make things clearer... I don't think there is 
anything inherently *wrong* with Snape's scolding Neville 
severely when he makes basic mistakes in Potions classes. I don't 
think that that is inappropriate.

*BUT* I do think that it is probably counterproductive. That method 
might work with most students, but I do think that Neville as an 
individual would probably respond better to less stressful correction 
of his mistakes. And I wouldn't have any problem at all, if Snape saw 
that and decided that *with Neville specifically* a different 
approach might be a better one to use. By the same token, I believe 
that if he did that, he would be affording Neville a privilege - not 
a right.

However, I would have *very* strong objections if, in order to cater 
to Neville, Snape changed the way he taught the other nineteen 
students in that class. And there is a big difference.

Yours Without Wax, Dreadnought
Shaun Hately | www.alphalink.com.au/~drednort/thelab.html
(ISTJ)       | drednort at alphalink.com.au | ICQ: 6898200 
"You know the very powerful and the very stupid have one
thing in common. They don't alter their views to fit the 
facts. They alter the facts to fit the views. Which can be 
uncomfortable if you happen to be one of the facts that 
need altering." The Doctor - Doctor Who: The Face of Evil
Where am I: Frankston, Victoria, Australia