Teaching Styles LONG

[dumbledore11214]

No: HPFGUIDX 147836

> Shaun:
> 
> Not exactly, although I can understand why you've arrived at that 
> conclusion, because it's not that dissimilar from my position 
really. 
> 
> I believe that if a teacher's methods are working for the great 
> majority of students (not just a simple majority - 51% - but a 
> significant majority - say at least 80%) then that teacher is 
almost 
> certainly a good teacher. The fact that their methods may not work 
> for a small minority of their class doesn't make them a bad 
teacher.

Alla:

Right, that is what I thought. And really if by "methods do not 
work" you mean that children simply do not perform well, small 
minority of children, I mean, I guess I could see your POV, but if 
by "methods do not work" you mean that teacher is actively harming 
physically and /or emotionally three, two or even one child in the 
classroom, I would never call him a good teacher, so I guess we are 
in significant disagreement.

 
Shaun:
> In terms of Harry Potter, look at Trelawney's Divination classes, 
and 
> Hermione's reaction to them. Again we have a total mismatch 
between 
> teaching style and the needs of a particular student. It happens.

Alla:
This is actually a VERY good example of what I would find to be not 
very problematic mismatch. I mean I have problems with Trelawney as 
teacher for different reasons, but IF her method did not work for 
just Hermione, I would NEVER call her a bad teacher. She was not IMO 
actively harming Hermione in any way, shape or form. I mean, she was 
damaging her chance to learn Divination well, who knows maybe she 
would have performed better under a different teacher, but as you 
said - it happens.

Snape IMO actively harms Harry and Neville and for that reason I 
think that he is a very bad teacher. I also think that he is a bad 
teacher for all Gryffindors at least (IMO of course), but this is of 
course what we see less than what he does to Harry and Neville.

Shaun;
<SNIP>
> What I am saying is that judging a teacher based only on their 
worst 
> performing students is not a fair or accurate way to judge them. 
You 
> need to judge them on their success with their classroom as a 
whole.

Alla:

See above - I would maybe agree with you if the minority of students 
is not performing well, but not HARMED. If one student in Snape 
class ends up being permanently hurt because of him, I absolutely 
will call him a bad teacher because of it, IMO of course.

Shaun:
> I do think Snape crosses a line when it comes to Harry, and I have 
> said so in the past. Snape has a personal visceral hatred for 
Harry 
> Potter as a person. This has *nothing* to do with his teaching, 
> however - it's purely personal based on factors completely 
external 
> to his teaching and to his skill as a teacher.

Alla:

See, that is another point where I am completely failing to 
understand where you are coming from. If the person argues that what 
Snape does to Harry is fine, I can sort of see how then Snape can be 
called good teacher. Well, I think that calling what Snape does to 
Harry as "fine" is not supported by the canon, BUT when the most 
horrific case of mistreatment(IMO of course) is explained away ( 
together with Neville - I understand you disagree, but that is IMO), 
then all you have to do is to imagine that maybe Snape is very good 
to everybody else in school and here we go - he is a good teacher.

But you agree that Snape mistreats Harry, that he hates the boy, 
moreover you agree that Snape brings PERSONAL hatred to the 
classroom. Don't you think that if he does it to ONE student, there 
is a danger that he can do so to ANY student? Basically Snape cannot 
keep his feelings in check, isn't it dangerous to let him teach in 
the first place?

What if he decided that parents of , I don't know Lee Jordan 
insulted him and he has a grudge against him? How about Cho Chang 
parents? I am just picking the first names that came to mind here.


Shaun:
<HUGE SNIP>
> What I see Snape doing, most of the time, with regards to Neville 
is 
> seeking to discipline him. By verbally scolding him. And, no, I 
don't 
> think that crosses the line, unpopular and unfashionable though it 
> may be to some people. 

Alla:

Shaun, I am snipping your canon about Neville, because here our 
positions are very far away from each other, but I don't see the 
point in discussing it, since I can only offer the different 
interpretation of the same canon, not offering anything new. To make 
a long story short - yes, I believe Snape completely out of line 
when he deals with Neville, but this is JMO.


Shaun:
> Yes, it would warrant his immediate dismissal, and I would hope 
> prosecution to the full extent of the law. And that is coming from 
> someone who does believe corporal punishment can sometimes be 
> appropriate in schools. The instant he had inflicted more strokes 
> than was authorized, he crossed an absolute line.

Alla:

I am very glad to hear it and this is coming from someone who does 
not believe that corporate punishment is ever appropriate in schools.

  
> > Alla:
> > 
> > Oh, I am not asking that at all. How about proving that Snape IS 
a 
> > good teacher, if you wish of course, I understand if you don't.

Irene: 
> Several people achieved Outstanding in his class, which is 100% 
canon. I 
> don't know what is the result of Transfiguration or Charms OWL, 
but in 
> DADA it's quite clear to me (though not 100% canon fact) that 
Harry is 
> the only student with an O. Several Hufflepuffs and Ravenclaws 
were ready to continue Potions with 
> Snape on NEWTs level (and so was Hermione).

Alla:

Oh, but I have no problem agreeing with you that Snape maybe a good 
teacher for SOME. Its "Snape is a good teacher for many" I have 
problem with. I am not sure I understand how you arrived at the 
conclusion that Harry is the only student with "O", but I have to 
say that the bad grades of many students in DADA would not surprise 
me at the very least, considering the fact that they only had a good 
teacher for one year out of five years of schooling. Again though, 
where do you find their DADA grades?

Irene:
No one wanted NEWTs class 
> with Hagrid (including Harry, which is quite hypocritical of him).

Alla:

What Juli said :-)

Irene:
> But the deeds speak louder than the words! :-) Hermione was going 
to 
> take another two years of Snape.
Alla:
She is you know... Hermione. :-)

Irene:
 And it's funny that you mention twins - 
> they own most of their success to their superb knowledge and 
application 
> of Potions. Did they need to say it out loud, that Snape didn't 
put them 
> off the subject?

Alla:

Actually this was precisely the reason why I brought up Twins, 
because I remembered this argument. Do they indeed own their success 
primarily to their knowledge of potions? I  mean I am sure that some 
of their creations are based on Potions but mostly it is just 
creativity in general, no? Right now I can only name Canary Cream as 
something which is based on potion and love potions I guess, but 
this is only a small part of what they do, no?

So, yeah, I would like to hear them saying it out loud.

Alla earlier:
> > IMO the purpose of the nonverbal spells exercise was DUAL - to 
learn 
> > how to do nonverbal spells and to overpower your opponent. Harry 
did 
> > not do the first part, but he did the second one perfectly.

Irene: 
> Nope. In Greco-roman wrestling you don't get points by using legs, 
in 
> football (the proper one) you don't score goals with you hands, in 
> boxing you don't win by hitting your opponent under the belt.
> 
> In all the cases above one would be punished, not praised, even 
though 
> the opponent is overpowered.

Alla:

Oh, snort. Too funny about proper football. You know, I still cannot 
make myself to call American football "football". I so miss "Dinamo 
Kiev" sometimes. Never mind, that was erm... lyrical aside.

Good analogies, no question about it, the only thing I can say is 
that those are "games' which should be played by the rules and 
supposedly Hogwarts students will be using those spells during 
battle where there are no rules.

 
 Betsy Hp:
> This sort of question seems silly to me, because the bar is always 
> being moved.  
> 
> 1)"If Snape's so good, why does no one praise him?"  Well, 
Umbridge 
> calls his classes advanced, and not as a suck up.  And suddenly 
that 
> doesn't count.  

Alla:

Are you SURE Betsy that Umbridge is not a suck up to Snape? It 
seemed to me that for someone who wooed Slytherin house to be on her 
team so actively it would make whole lot of sense to be in the good 
graces of Slytherin Head of the House? So, yes, does not count for 
much. IMO of course.


Betsy:
> 2) "If Snape's so good, why don't the students see him as a good 
> teacher?"  Well, Hermione, JKR's chosen judge of good vs. bad 
> teaching (except for the Lockhart moment, which if you want to 
argue 
> that Hermione is hot for Snape, be my guest <g>), has consistently 
> said Snape is a teacher worth listening to, and in HBP says he's 
> like Harry.  But, no, suddenly *that* doesn't count (though I 
can't 
> remember the reason that gets dismissed, off hand).

Alla:

Could you point me to interview where JKR said that Hermione is a 
chosen judge of good vs bad teaching? But in any event "worth 
listening to" does not equal "good teacher" in my book.


Betsy:
> 3) "I will judge Snape's abilities on the number of students 
> achieving an O in potions."  HBP comes out, we've got a classroom 
> made up of 1/4 of Harry's class.  But suddenly that number is no 
> good because... well, I seem to recall a whole new maths was 
> invented to throw this one out.  Plus it was decided that Harry's 
> class is actually *much* bigger than we've seen.  (Tons of unknown 
> Hufflepuffs I assume).

Alla:

You should really take this grievance with JKR. :-) Because she was 
the one who could not decide whether Harry's year contains 600 ( 
almost sure of the number) or 40( I think) students.
If Harry's year contains 600 students, then by the number of 
students in his NEWT classroom he seems to be an abysmal failure of 
the teacher. IMO of course, because I don't remember 150 students 
sitting there. :)


Betsy: 
> 4) "I will judge Snape's abilities on the number of Slytherins 
that 
> become Death Eaters."  There was one, and he was incredibly 
> reluctant.  So much so his family needed to be threatened to get 
him 
> to obey.  I'm sure the usual Slytherin bias dismisses this one.  
> (The only good Slytherin is a dead Slytherin, etc., etc.)

Alla:

You have some proof that Slytherins who graduated while Snape was a 
teacher had not become DE? I mean I don't remember either way, but 
surely we can assume both possibilities here, no?

And no, Draco's family did not need to be threatened to make him to 
obey. He was quite happy to start his service without knowing that 
Voldemort will threaten his family later on. Big difference IMO 
because I can by no means call Draco on the train "reluctant". He 
seems quite eager and pleased to me.


> Betsy Hp:
> A neat little trap, this, Alla.  Because we do know that Snape 
> doesn't like Gryffindors, and we also know that Gryffindors don't 
> like Slytherins.  

Alla:

So, I take it you agree with me that older Gryffindors do not think 
Snape is a good teacher either?
 
Betsy:
> However, if we accept that Hufflepuffs are not total duffers, the 
> fact that Ernie Macmillan says of Snape's first DADA class, "Good 
> lesson, I thought," (HBP scholastic p.182) should fit the bill.  
> (Only, of course it won't <g>.)

Alla:

If we disregard the fact that I was talking about Snape as a potions 
teacher, not as DADA teacher, then Okay you got me here - Snape is a 
good teacher for Ernie Macmillan. Huge accomplishment that. :-)

 
> > >>Alla:
> > <snip>
> > And I never said that Snape should have praised Harry for 
not      
> > following instructions, but that it would have been nice if 
Snape 
> > acknowledged that Harry won the exercise, even if using the 
verbal 
> > spell.
> 
> Betsy Hp:
> Right.  Just as I'm sure your law professors would have been 
pleased 
> if during mock court one of the students pulled out a gun and 
broke 
> his client out of the courtroom. 

Alla:

Flawed analogy, Betsy. Here is the better one. IMO of course. If say 
during the examination of the witness I would use the unexpected 
questions, which will make the witness to reveal damaging 
information and will help me to win the case, my professors would be 
very pleased, even if they would expect me to ask completely 
different questions. And I can tell you that especially in the RW, 
my client certainly does not care how I win the cases, as long as I 
win them. I mean, I have ethical constraints of course, but besides 
that, really everything goes, if judge allows.

 > Betsy Hp:
> Ooh, not even *Harry* agrees with you here.  Harry *totally* 
relied 
> on Slughorn's liking him.  That's why he told Ron the *trick* 
> wouldn't have worked if he'd given Ron a bezoar.  Harry *cheated*, 
> and he knew it.  Heck, that's why Slughorn praised him for his 
> cheek.  

Alla:

I won't argue bezoar with you, since again this is different 
interpretation of the same canon, but what do you mean - Slughorn 
praised him for his cheek because Harry cheated?


JMO,

Alla